Pope John XXIII is a Lutheran Saint?
#21
I like to think of John as opposed to Pius XII as the last traditional pope- he only lived through one session of Vatican II and it was one of the only sessions that produced no documents. For all John XXIII knew the council was going to be the best thing since Trent. Remember, significant changes to the Mass were not implemented until two-three years after he died.
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#22
BlessedKarl Wrote:Who cares? I like to think John XXIII was a good pope who died too soon. Imagine this scenario:

-what if he had lived until 1970? What would the Liturgy have looked like? Would he have permitted the abolition of latin, Gregorian Chant, communion while kneeling and other things? Would he have kept them and would Bugnini have been given the power he was given?

I think things would have been much better. The real destroyer's of the Church were Paul VI because of the new Mass and JPII because of his Apostasy and syncretisim and personality cult and his inability to lead and his episcopal appointments and and and..........
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#23
Well, considering all of the saints we cranked out under JPII, I suppose we can share one with the poor prottys.

It's only Christian charity, after all!
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#24
Quote:
Has anyone heard this? John XXIII .... a Protestant saint?

Just when I thought it couldn't get any more discouraging.
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#25
Well Traditio likes him so he couldn't have been that bad[Image: laff.gif]:


[Image: john23.jpg]

Pope John XXIII (1958-1963)
Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli (1881-1963)
Pope John XXIII summoned the Italian bishops to the Roman Synod of 1959 as an anticipation of the Second Vatican council. In a massive reaffirmation of traditional practice, the pope solemnly confirmed the use of Latin, condemned all attempts at creativity on the part of the celebrant of Holy Mass, ordered Gregorian Chant, and forbade women entry to the altar area.
A year later the pope issued his Apostolic Constitution Veterum Sapientia, On Promoting the Study of Latin, as the Church's cultural and religious heritage and as its living language -- universal, immutable, and non-vernacular. He bound bishops to "be on their guard lest anyone under their jurisdiction, being eager for innovation, write against the use of Latin in the teaching of the higher sacred studies or in the liturgy, or through prejudice makes light of the Holy See's will in this regard or interprets it fa1sely." He attributed a very special importance to this document, promulgating it with a solemnity unique in the history of the present century -- in person, in St. Peter's upon the Confession of St. Peter himself, and in the presence of the cardinals and of the Roman clergy. When he opened the Second Vatican Council on October 11, 1962, Pope John XXIII charged the Council Fathers "that the Sacred Deposit of Christian Doctrine should be guarded and taught more efficaciously [with a] renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teachings of the Church in their entirety and preciseness, as they still shine forth in the acts of the Council of Trent and the First Vatican Council." In fact, the Second Vatican Council was apparently a great disappointment to the pope. According to Anne Muggeridge, the daughter-in-law of the famous British Catholic convert and journalist Malcolm Muggeridge), in The Desolate City, John Cardinal Heenan of Westminster reported that when, during the rebellious first session of the Council, the pope realized that the papacy had lost control of the process, he attempted to organize a group of bishops to try to force it to an end. Malcolm Muggeridge, who reported from Rome on the Second Vatican Council for the British Broadcasting Corporation, considered Pope John "politically naive and unduly influenced by the handful of 'liberal' clerics with whom he is in close contact." In a 1985 interview, he gave his assessment of the pope thus:
Quote:Really Pope John -- who was built up as a saintly and perfect pope, the good man of our time -- whether consciously or unconsciously, did more damage to the Church than possibly any other individual man had ever done in the whole of its history.... It seemed almost as though Pope John was operating on behalf of the devil without being in any way conscious of it.
Whatever Pope John's disposition was, however, before the second session of the council could open, he died. His last words on his deathbed, as reported by Jean Guitton, the only Catholic layman to serve as a peritus at the Council, were: "Stop the Council; stop the Council." In any case, it is a fact that Pope John signed not one document of the Second Vatican Council.
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#26
McMaster Wrote:
Cephas Wrote:No one pays attention to his words near his death: "Stop the Council, Stop the Council".
If anyone can direct me to a thoroughly reliable account of when, where, why, and in what context he reportedly said these words (which no one yet has, although I've asked several times), I'll pay atteniton to them. If not, I won't.
The only source I could found on it:
Quote:Whatever Pope John's disposition was, however, before the second session of the council could open, he died. His last words on his deathbed, as reported by Jean Guitton, the only Catholic layman to serve as a peritus at the Council, were: "Stop the Council; stop the Council." In any case, it is a fact that Pope John signed not one document of the Second Vatican Council.

Oh you beat me to it, Robb.
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#27
Robb Wrote:Whatever Pope John's disposition was, however, before the second session of the council could open, he died. His last words on his deathbed, as reported by Jean Guitton, the only Catholic layman to serve as a peritus at the Council, were: "Stop the Council; stop the Council."

What you have here is a mere reported rumor, like "I heard from somebody or other that Jean Guitton said Pope John said these words before he died, although I don't know who Guitton got the story from." Still, an inquiry about Guitton might conceivably disclose some interesting facts, such as whether Guitton was present at Pope John's deathbed when the words were allegedly spoken, and how, where, when, to whom, and why Guitton reported the words (if he did). So, thanks!

Blessings,

Don McMaster
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#28
Traditio Wrote:According to Wikipedia:

"He is honored by many Protestant organizations as a Christian reformer. Both Anglican and Lutheran denominations commemorate John XXIII as a "renewer of the church."

There is no source given though.

In an article on
CatholicApologetics.info, it says:

"John XXIII, who died during Vatican II, is listed as a saint in the Lutheran Church. His feast day is June 3."

The source given is
a book called "What has Happened to the Catholic Church?"

Has anyone heard this? John XXIII .... a Protestant saint?

I would not infer too much from it. Many mainline Protestants today have all manner of Catholic personages on calendars - like St. Francis de Sales and St. Ignatius of Loyola. They jostle togather with Luther, MLK and whoever else you can think of. Some of the mainline Protestant denominations are quite, um, inclusive. for example, the CofE has this litany-of-saints type thing a portion of which reads
Quote:For Thomas Cranmer and all who reform the Church of God: Thanks be to God
For Thomas More and all who hold firm to its continuing faith: Thanks be to God



jovan, Bl. John XXIII's name also appears in the ECUSA's Lesser Feasts and Fasts, if I am not mistaken.
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#29
PeteC Wrote:jovan, Bl. John XXIII's name also appears in the ECUSA's Lesser Feasts and Fasts, if I am not mistaken.
 You may be right. I had checked Wikipedia for the list I gave and he's not listed there nor is he in my copy of the ECUSA BCP 1979 (bought at a second hand bookstore for liturgical comparison only!), but they might have issued an addendum.
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#30
PeteC Wrote:
Quote:For Thomas Cranmer and all who reform the Church of God: Thanks be to God
For Thomas More and all who hold firm to its continuing faith: Thanks be to God

Wanna talk about historical revisionism!
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