being vegetarian
#11
Since when was total environmental disregard acceptable? Oh right, profits and such from the decadent European materialism that's been around since the Enlightenment.
Great Pacfic Garbage patch in which the frickin' plastic is entering the food chain? Not a problem for money. Actually, I just sometimes wish another Galveston would happen so those sickos learn a lesson or two that the economy isn't everything and that resorting to a priori sophistry isn't going to hold against smarter folks.
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#12
• "Nature" was a pre-romantic discovery that romanticism propagated, and which technology is killing in our days.
• The much celebrated "dominion of man over nature" resulted simply in an immense homicidal capacity.
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/...id=2998988

Also, living in a state with the Cheasapeake Bay, in which it is a fact that pollution is screwing with the oysters and other life that is living there. It screws up the businesses that depend on these organisms. Oh wait, here comes the liberal nutter accusations.

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#13
jovan66102 Wrote:
Montgisard Wrote:
Quote: From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2415
The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196


That sounds like environmentalist speak (quality of life, sustainability, religious respect for creation etc). I did not know environmentalism could be catholicized!
 Far from needing to be 'catholicized', environmentalism began as a Catholic movement as pointed out by Oxford history professor Anna Bramwell in her histories of the movement. The prots and the socialists were all in the 'absolute dominion' camp while the Catholics, drawing on Scripture and the monastic experience were arguing for sustainability. Such men as Fr Fahey were in the forefront of the 'clean food' campaign as well.


Fascinating Joven, thanks for the post, and I defiently want to understand that more.  Though there are aspects of the modern, political, environmental movement that are "over the top" at times (and the PETA types are just plain silly), still, God created the earth and all that is upon it, and gave humans dominion over it, which, in my mind implies stewardship - and there would be definite moral issues involved.  And, of course, wherever there are moral issues, there the Church would have something to say.
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#14
Theresa Wrote:
Quote:" Really, it just confirmed to me that even the most well planned vegan diet is totally unnatural and unhealthy.

Well,.... not really.  I don't think so, anyway.    I know strict, contemplate Carmelites who are vegetarian.    And many such religious live very lengthy lives.

I believe it was mentioned in the book, The Mystical City of God, by M. Agreda, that our Lady ate no red meat, only some fish at times.

It has even been speculated that it was only after the Fall that the blood of animals was to be spilled in order to nourish man.

Quote:It would depend on your motivations for being vegetarian

I would agree with the above.  The Carmelites I mentioned, do it as a form of penance.  Imagine not having tasted meat for 75+ years, as in the case of an elderly Carmelite I know.

To clarify, vegans abstain not only from red meat, poultry and fish, but also from all dairy products and eggs, and sometimes products like yeast as well. I have also been a vegan, and like Paloma, concluded that it is structurally unhealthy. For example, B12 does not naturally occur in any plant sources; all vegans get it in enriched milks or other supplements. A Christian vegan could perhaps argue that B12 was available in plants before the Fall, or something, but that seems like a stretch to me. God wouldn't demand the impossible, so veganism can't be ideal.
Carmelites, on the other hand, simply abstain from red meat and poultry, from what I understand. They can get all the B12 (not to mention calories, iron, protein, calcium, etc.) from yoghurt, and cheese (as well as beans and grains).
My two cents.
SH
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#15
I am a semi-semi-vegetarian, not because I think it's a healthier lifestyle (necessarily), and not because I'm against the slaughter of animals per se, but because I think factory farms are an abuse of God's resources and a sin. I don't want to contribute to sustaining a system in which animals' feet never touch the ground and whose eyes never look upon the sun and where chickens are mere caricatures of birds. I can no longer physically stomach poultry, which has been totally excised from my diet.. I eat dairy and a lot of fish and seafood. I might eat pork "socially" -- like the alcoholic who drinks socially. Once a year I'll have a slice of the Easter ham.  As for red meat, I'm not rigid about it. If I get an irresistible craving for a hamburger or steak, okay-fine. It's not like one person eating one hamburger once every six months would be enough to keep the factory farms in operation. - Lisa
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#16
shirhamalot Wrote:To clarify, vegans abstain not only from red meat, poultry and fish, but also from all dairy products and eggs, and sometimes products like yeast as well. I have also been a vegan, and like Paloma, concluded that it is structurally unhealthy. For example, B12 does not naturally occur in any plant sources; all vegans get it in enriched milks or other supplements. A Christian vegan could perhaps argue that B12 was available in plants before the Fall, or something, but that seems like a stretch to me. God wouldn't demand the impossible, so veganism can't be ideal.

A note about B12.  B12 is not made/synthesized by any animal (human or non-human).  B12 is the result of bacterial digestion.  The bacteria that make B12 live in the soil.  B12 is then ingested by ruminant animals (sheep, cows, etc), used by their bodies and then stored in muscle tissue and secreted in milk.

It is theorized that our diets in the days before being hyper-sensitive about cleaning our vegetables we ingested vitamin B12 in some of the dirt that still clung to the vegetable matter we ate.  Just like cows, sheep, deer, etc.

With modern farming techniques that rely on chemically treated soil there are fewer vitamin B12 producing bacteria.  As a result it is believed that B12 levels in factory farmed meats (particularly since these animals rarely graze any more) are declining.  Many commercial animals feeds contain B12 supplementation.

So in effect, in the B12 argument, the animal whose flesh you eat is only the middle man for vitamin B12.

Supplementation with B12 is really not any  more unnatural than giving the supplements to the cows, chickens, etc and then eating them.

(Edited to add - I am not a vegan so I'm not defending my personal eating habits.  Just pointing out that B12 is not "naturally found" in any animal as in the animal makes their own.  All animals must obtain B12 from external sources, in other words, bacteria.)
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#17
I'm vegan, have been since college. I've never worried much what other people thought of it. It's not unhealthy if you do it right, by which I mean apply common sense and pay attention to nutrition. My five year old has been mostly vegan since birth (with the occasional pancake or dollop of frosting from a birthday cake), and she has more strength and stamina than any other kid on the playground. When I first went vegetarian in high school the nuns were very supportive and spoke to me about the Catholic tradition of the practice;  they calmed my mother down about it.  My Confessors have never been bothered, either. They've just reminded me that fasting is a sacrifice and so I should choose what to give up with that in mind. No problem.
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#18
frerejacques Wrote:I'm vegan, have been since college. I've never worried much what other people thought of it. It's not unhealthy if you do it right, by which I mean apply common sense and pay attention to nutrition. My five year old has been mostly vegan since birth (with the occasional pancake or dollop of frosting from a birthday cake), and she has more strength and stamina than any other kid on the playground. When I first went vegetarian in high school the nuns were very supportive and spoke to me about the Catholic tradition of the practice;  they calmed my mother down about it.  My Confessors have never been bothered, either. They've just reminded me that fasting is a sacrifice and so I should choose what to give up with that in mind. No problem.

I'm not sure why some people seem to thrive and others do not. My husband is a carnivore who could pass out if made to go meatless for more than a day. I actually do much better on a primarily meatless diet with eggs and dairy taken only 2-3 times a month. But when I've gone completely vegan, my body reacts violently after about 6-8 weeks. I've tested it 3 separate times and each time ended the same...fever, body aches, chills...all of which disappear shortly after I eat some sort of animal product. And I was eating healthy (ezekiel bread, raw nuts, greens, fruit, lentils, legumes, sweet potatos) - it wasn't all potato chips and fruit rollups (I've seen many a "vegan" do that.)

I actually have some friends who are RAW vegans and their kids have been raw vegans from birth. The parents keep claiming how healthy the kids are and how much energy they have but it makes me nervous. Their children are tiny. TINY. And skinny skinny skinny. The parents also keep stating proudly the fact that they won't vaccinate their kids but I really think its because they are afraid to take their kids to the doctor (something the are also refusing to do.) They have to all be at the 20th percentile or lower which would warrant concern from most pediatricians. Kids need fat, protein, and calcium for growth. It sounds like the diet they are imposing is well intended but its hard enough getting kids to eat enough of the right thing to begin with, I can't imagine getting my kids to eat right/enough when they have only nuts or fruits to choose from.

Anyway, there really isn't anything uncatholic about a meat or animal-product free diet. Listen to your body and if it is working for you, great. :shrug:

edited to add: The reason I previously stated that veganism was unnatural was because of the amount of effort needed to remain properly nourished. Human beings, up until recently, didn't have the luxury of being so careful and well -planned about food.
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#19
Paloma Wrote:
frerejacques Wrote:I'm vegan, have been since college. I've never worried much what other people thought of it. It's not unhealthy if you do it right, by which I mean apply common sense and pay attention to nutrition. My five year old has been mostly vegan since birth (with the occasional pancake or dollop of frosting from a birthday cake), and she has more strength and stamina than any other kid on the playground. When I first went vegetarian in high school the nuns were very supportive and spoke to me about the Catholic tradition of the practice; they calmed my mother down about it. My Confessors have never been bothered, either. They've just reminded me that fasting is a sacrifice and so I should choose what to give up with that in mind. No problem.
it wasn't all potato chips and fruit rollups (I've seen many a "vegan" do that.)

Vending Machine Vegans! I did that in college, regretted it. Yes, I know some people who say they're just constitutionally not built to be vegans, and I believe them. It's easy for me, so maybe that's why I've stuck with it.

Children like the ones you mention always concern me. I see them at the health food store with their parents, and it sort of hurts to look at them. You just want to give them a sandwich! Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt they'll be vegan adults. When mine was a baby the pediatrician hassled me about our diet, so I switched to a vegetarian doctor in the same practice and we've not had any trouble since. We do all vaccinations. She's usually around the 75th percentile for height and weight, and she started talking at eight months. [/endmombragging]

Glad to see you back!!
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#20
Maybe for ladies. Fine. But if you wanna be man. and bring up a strong lad he needs meat. Needs to eat meat and drink fine stout. Cant be a man just nibblin flowers and fruits. no way!
sip sip

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