Aspergers and ADHD
(07-27-2009, 11:49 AM)Satori Wrote: Res beat me to what I was going to say in part. Rosarium, before we can have a useful discussion about this, let's begin by defining our terms. I know about people with Asperger's partly from what I have read on the Internet (not a great, deep source, I know), partly from talking to mothers of Asperger's children, and partly from a few people I have known who I think might be Asperger's. Much of the information I'm encountering is contradictory. Please tell me EXACTLY (you are very good at being exact) what you mean when you refer to someone using this term. Then please define "NT." I can't speak for others on here, but I find that term rather insulting, perhaps in part because of the way I and some of my friends used the word "typical" in a sneering fashion when we were young and arrogant, but partly because of the way I've seen it bandied about. As Res said, some of us are resisting because we don't like being lumped into this big category called "NT" and then told that we were bullies at worst, or maybe some of us were nice but clueless and annoying to AS people. As Res pointed out, some of us who would be called "NT" by AS people were also considered different and treated exactly as you were. I don't know about Res, but I never bullied anyone and went out of my way to be kind to the people who were different -- which, if any of them were AS, was probably really annoying to them. Also, many of us "NT" folks are shy introverts who don't need socialization as much as the extroverts, so it's puzzling to be lumped in with the frat boys and party girls.
Sure. In the book I'm writing, the first four chapters are for definitions and explanations of terms (but on online discussions, people yell at me if I do too much background information at first).

Asperger's Syndrome, which I also refer to informally as a personality, is precisely defined. I'll copy and paste some from my book (formatting is lost):

Quote:According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition, Text Revision, from now on referred to as the “DSM”, Asperger’s Disorder (299.80), the diagnostic criteria are:

A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
    * marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
    * failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
    * a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
    * lack of social or emotional reciprocity
B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
    * encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus 
    * apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
    * stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
    * persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia

This is from the DSM, and is for professionals, so this is a concise list for professionals. It is of limited use for non professionals, but that is the definition.

Here is the short section after the introduction called "A Few Notes on Style and Convention":
Quote:I do this not to demean anyone, but to communicate clearly. I will mix phrases such as “an individual with a Neurotypical Personality”, “A Neurotypical...”, “Neurotypical society”, “people with Asperger's Personality”, “An Asperger's Personality...”, “Asperger's communication...”, when they best fit the focus of the statement. They are just personalities to me with no connotations of any sort when they are used appropriately. I mention this because I have noticed Neurotypicals assume emotions and negative opinions rather than just a meaningful descriptive phrase when I use it. It seems labeling Neurotypicals gets them upset, but they expect others to accept labels of their choice when it is done by them.

The definition of NT comes later, but it just refers to a personality which is normal. Since it is defined by its prevalence, that sort of makes it hard to define in words, but basically it refers to the average personality.

About my perception of NT's, that is just my perception. Obviously, I did not perceive NT's when they were not bothering me. Those people who do the teasing are not representative of all people, but they are the only ones a young person with AS will notice besides family. That is why I refer to it as a vestigial resentment, because I have grown and matured since then, but they did make a big impression on me at that age which is hard to fully shake.


Quote:As for what I perceive as your implication that AS people are superior: I realize you may not have meant to imply this, but you don't seem to understand subtext. The subtext of your comments, intentional or not, comes off to me (and some others) as a belief in your superiority and that of others with AS. If you don't mean this, it will at least be helpful for you to know that you are giving this impression so that you can take pains to correct it.
Actually, I think it is more about NT people perceiving it that way, rather than my actual words. I do know I give that impression sometimes (and it is address immediately in my book). It is interesting that I do give that impression. When AS and NT are discussed as if they are equal, NT's feel demeaned.

In the DSM, this is significant (although it is found in some way in all definitions):

Quote:C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

I feel when a person with AS does not have this, or loses it, they are still AS but their personality is just a personality, no better or worse than any other. If AS is seen as just a big difference in individuals, as I do, which leads to problems rather than being a problem in itself, one has to conclude that the "solution" is not treatment and care, but learning and practice. The very young people with AS have no problems, also, those who are older and more experienced often have no problems either, yet their personality remains the same. Knowledge is the key. Knowing how to communicate is the key. For people with AS, this means learning how NT social values work, and how to communicate with them, even if they don't really understand it. This is my focus when I'm with people with AS (rare, actually). When, however, a person wants to communicate with a person with AS, it is up to them to learn and work at it. If a mother wants to communicate with their child, she has to learn to communicate to the child first, before teaching the child how to communicate to others. A young child doesn't know what is best for them and if no one can properly teach them, they are at a severe disadvantage.

I'm posting here at the prompting, mostly of NT inquiries, which means I respond in a way which is useful to them. About ResiduumRevertetur's son, I responded in a way that I felt ResiduumRevertetur would benefit, not her son only. If her son came to me with questions, I'd certainly give a different answer and if taken alone, that answer would give the impression that I feel people with AS should change and work to communicate with NTs rather than the other way around.

In my book:

Quote:It is usually the responsibility of the Asperger's Personality to prove itself to society and adapt itself to others, rather than the other way around. This is “unfair” to us, but it is the way it is.
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Messages In This Thread
Aspergers and ADHD - by VoxClamantis - 08-22-2008, 05:53 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by kjvail - 08-22-2008, 09:17 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by DarkKnight - 08-22-2008, 10:37 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by britmum - 09-01-2008, 10:45 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 09-02-2008, 02:11 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by jovan66102 - 09-02-2008, 03:52 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by ResiduumRevertetur - 09-02-2008, 08:01 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by kjvail - 09-02-2008, 08:08 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by DarkKnight - 09-02-2008, 10:21 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by kjvail - 09-02-2008, 10:28 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by DarkKnight - 09-02-2008, 10:43 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by ResiduumRevertetur - 09-02-2008, 10:44 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by mom - 09-02-2008, 03:03 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by ronyu02 - 09-03-2008, 09:01 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 09-03-2008, 06:07 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by ResiduumRevertetur - 09-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by JesusFreak84 - 09-04-2008, 11:55 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 12-31-2008, 03:38 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by voxpopulisuxx - 12-31-2008, 06:14 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 12-31-2008, 06:35 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 12-31-2008, 06:38 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 12-31-2008, 06:52 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by voxpopulisuxx - 01-01-2009, 11:53 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by AdoramusTeChriste - 01-01-2009, 07:57 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-01-2009, 09:21 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by AdoramusTeChriste - 01-01-2009, 09:32 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-01-2009, 09:41 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by AdoramusTeChriste - 01-01-2009, 10:16 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-01-2009, 10:21 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by AdoramusTeChriste - 01-01-2009, 10:37 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-01-2009, 11:24 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Quaesumus - 01-01-2009, 11:33 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-01-2009, 11:37 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Quaesumus - 01-02-2009, 02:09 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 01-02-2009, 05:12 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-02-2009, 05:14 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-02-2009, 05:18 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by WhollyRoaminCatholic - 01-02-2009, 05:26 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 01-02-2009, 07:07 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Stephanos - 01-02-2009, 07:12 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by orate - 01-02-2009, 07:19 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-02-2009, 08:25 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by bluecarmel - 01-02-2009, 09:21 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-02-2009, 09:45 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-02-2009, 09:55 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 01-04-2009, 10:28 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-05-2009, 12:00 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by mom - 01-05-2009, 07:30 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-05-2009, 07:55 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Melita - 01-05-2009, 08:09 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-05-2009, 08:17 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Melita - 01-05-2009, 08:21 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-05-2009, 08:41 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 01-05-2009, 10:57 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by AdoramusTeChriste - 01-05-2009, 11:41 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by mom - 01-06-2009, 12:51 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by mom - 01-06-2009, 12:52 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by mom - 01-06-2009, 01:03 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-06-2009, 03:08 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-06-2009, 03:15 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-06-2009, 03:16 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 01-06-2009, 09:10 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-06-2009, 01:06 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by VoxClamantis - 01-17-2009, 09:06 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-17-2009, 09:16 PM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-18-2009, 06:23 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-18-2009, 06:37 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-18-2009, 07:56 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by somerset76 - 01-18-2009, 09:24 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-18-2009, 10:05 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by somerset76 - 01-18-2009, 10:37 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 01-18-2009, 10:45 AM
Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 01-18-2009, 07:36 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Lee Timmer - 07-25-2009, 04:09 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-25-2009, 04:43 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by voxpopulisuxx - 07-25-2009, 06:11 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by devotedknuckles - 07-25-2009, 06:35 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by voxpopulisuxx - 07-25-2009, 07:21 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-25-2009, 08:24 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-25-2009, 08:27 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Joamy - 07-25-2009, 08:42 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by libby - 07-25-2009, 08:43 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by WhollyRoaminCatholic - 07-26-2009, 02:11 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-26-2009, 02:24 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by voxpopulisuxx - 07-26-2009, 02:56 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by ResiduumRevertetur - 07-26-2009, 03:36 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by orate - 07-26-2009, 03:46 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by libby - 07-26-2009, 04:09 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by devotedknuckles - 07-26-2009, 04:30 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by devotedknuckles - 07-26-2009, 04:47 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-26-2009, 05:25 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Melita - 07-26-2009, 05:38 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-26-2009, 05:46 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by voxpopulisuxx - 07-27-2009, 06:16 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 07-27-2009, 08:36 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by WhollyRoaminCatholic - 07-27-2009, 09:42 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 10:40 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 11:01 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by ResiduumRevertetur - 07-27-2009, 11:36 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 11:48 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 07-27-2009, 11:49 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 12:14 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 12:43 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by orate - 07-27-2009, 01:21 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 07-27-2009, 02:33 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 02:37 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by ResiduumRevertetur - 07-27-2009, 02:41 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 02:48 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 04:05 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Melita - 07-27-2009, 04:09 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 04:12 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Satori - 07-27-2009, 04:35 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 04:52 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 05:02 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by devotedknuckles - 07-27-2009, 07:31 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 07:34 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-27-2009, 09:45 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by devotedknuckles - 07-27-2009, 10:18 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by voxpopulisuxx - 07-27-2009, 10:43 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by devotedknuckles - 07-27-2009, 11:16 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by DarkKnight - 07-27-2009, 11:41 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-28-2009, 12:18 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-28-2009, 12:21 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by DarkKnight - 07-28-2009, 12:27 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-28-2009, 12:28 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-28-2009, 12:30 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Dust - 07-28-2009, 02:15 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Dust - 07-28-2009, 02:15 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by voxpopulisuxx - 07-28-2009, 08:34 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-28-2009, 11:50 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-28-2009, 12:47 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by orate - 07-28-2009, 12:57 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by devotedknuckles - 07-28-2009, 01:23 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 07-28-2009, 01:34 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by DarkKnight - 07-28-2009, 05:33 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Dust - 07-29-2009, 05:15 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Veronica - 08-07-2009, 08:10 AM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Dust - 08-07-2009, 07:22 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 08-09-2009, 04:02 PM
Re: Aspergers and ADHD - by Historian - 08-09-2009, 06:03 PM



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