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#21
StevusMagnus Wrote:
avemariagratiaplena Wrote:Thanks for the welcome. How can a Mass be both valid and not Catholic? I know that the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox might be so considered but how does that work for the Latin Church in communion with the Apostolic See?

The NO rite of Mass is not an infallible act. It was a clear departure from 1960+ years of Catholic liturgical tradition. It was designed by 6 Protestant ministers and a suspected Freemason to appease heretics. It de-emphasized the sacrificial nature of the Mass and removed Catholic prayers, unprecedented in Church history. To know the history of the NO Mass is to truly understand why it should not be attended.

Its remarkable the power that legend has attributed to those observers at the Sacred Synod. Shame there is no actual evidence to back it up. Still less the Freemason slander.




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#22
avemariagratiaplena Wrote:Its remarkable the power that legend has attributed to those observers at the Sacred Synod. Shame there is no actual evidence to back it up. Still less the Freemason slander.
Why don't you answer the rest of his post?  Allow me to reproduce it for you.

StevusMagnus Wrote:It de-emphasized the sacrificial nature of the Mass and removed Catholic prayers, unprecedented in Church history
As to the Protties at the Catholic Council, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to discern why they were there.  At this point, it seems naive to refuse that these men had any other role than observation.  Or is it coincidence that our New Mass looks so much like their "worship services?"  Come on.
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#23
Gondalus Wrote:Or is it coincidence that our New Mass looks so much like their "worship services?"  Come on.
No it doesn't. At the Lutheran service we knelt at an altar rail for "communion". Other than that, pretty spot on.
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#24
To say, accurately or otherwise, that the NO Mass resembles Protestant services (though not any I have ever been to in the Presbyterian Church of Scotland) is not proof that these six observers had power over the Sacred Synod that the hundreds of Cardinals and Bishops did not. Where is the evidence for the actual mechanics of their involvement in drawing up the liturgies? Do we have minutes of the meetings at which they spoke? Do we have draft copies of their proposed amendments and the like? And where is the evidence of Freemason involvement, actual concrete hard evidence that is.



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#25
avemariagratiaplena Wrote:To say, accurately or otherwise, that the NO Mass resembles Protestant services (though not any I have ever been to in the Presbyterian Church of Scotland) is not proof that these six observers had power over the Sacred Synod that the hundreds of Cardinals and Bishops did not. Where is the evidence for the actual mechanics of their involvement in drawing up the liturgies? Do we have minutes of the meetings at which they spoke? Do we have draft copies of their proposed amendments and the like? And where is the evidence of Freemason involvement, actual concrete hard evidence that is.
Of course, the problem is that the Sacred Synod did not draw up the NOM, indeed, they laid down directives that would seem to prohibit anything like the New Mass: 
[i Wrote:Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i]]
23. (T)here must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.  36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
 Thus, we must look elsewhere for the genesis of a Liturgy so protestantised as to be virtually indistinguishable from the services of the Anglican and many Lutheran sectaries.
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#26
avemariagratiaplena Wrote:To say, accurately or otherwise, that the NO Mass resembles Protestant services

Take my word for it.  Or poke your head in and take a look at a Lutheran service.  It's pretty accurate to say such things, unfortunately. 
avemariagratiaplena Wrote:Where is the evidence for the actual mechanics of their involvement in drawing up the liturgies? Do we have minutes of the meetings at which they spoke? Do we have draft copies of their proposed amendments and the like? And where is the evidence of Freemason involvement, actual concrete hard evidence that is.
 If these men had input, the Vatican would not advertise it, especially back then.  What a scandal that would have been, to have let Protestants design the Mass!  So we must look at the most obvious piece of evidence, namely the deCatholicization of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.(Even the wording is a giveaway.  The official definition became "the Lord's Supper," celebrated by the "people of God.")  If the bishops and pope are the only ones responsible for this Protestant-like "fabrication"(term used by Cardinal Ratzinger himself) that is our New Mass, then one can only scratch his head and wonder...  why would they do that? 

StevusMagnus Wrote:It de-emphasized the sacrificial nature of the Mass and removed Catholic prayers, unprecedented in Church history



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