Likely Moscow patriarch stresses differences with Catholic belief
#11
Bonifacio Wrote: 
I reckon they have a feast of the Dormition of Our Lady. However, I'm almost sure they believe Our Lady actually died before being assumed into Heaven.

So do we.  Take a look at MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS  by Pius XII, particularly paragraphs 20 and 21.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x...us_en.html

Quote: 
And by the way, I remember talking to some orthodox a few years ago about matters of the faith and as far as I can remember, they didn't have the same belief in original sin as the Church does. Well, they could be "bad" orthodox though but they seemed well grounded in their sect's beliefs.


They believe in Original Sin, but many mistakenly believe that the Latins conceive of it as a personal sin transmitted by inheritance to every descendant of Adam, and not just a deprivation of sanctifying grace.
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#12
spasiisochrani Wrote:So do we. Take a look at MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS  by Pius XII, particularly paragraphs 20 and 21.[url=http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html][/url]
 

I must humbly stand corrected then. I'd been under the false impression that Our Blessed Mother did not actually experience death before being assumed body and soul into Heaven since she had been immaculately conceived. H.H. Pius XII's words clearly speak of the "dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary" so I conform my belief with that of the Church.

Quote:They believe in Original Sin, but many mistakenly believe that the Latins conceive of it as a personal sin transmitted by inheritance to every descendant of Adam, and not just a deprivation of sanctifying grace.

Well, Original sin is hereditary since it's a "privation of justice (sanctifying grace) that each child contracts at its conception" (Sess. VI, cap. iii). So in that sense, we do inherit the sin from our parents.

Furthermore, St. Thomas teaches concerning our fault that "if the man, whose privation of original justice is due to Adam, is considered as a private person, this privation is not his 'fault', for a fault is essentially voluntary. If, however, we consider him as a member of the family of Adam, as if all men were only one man, then his privation partakes of the nature of sin on account of its voluntary origin, which is the actual sin of Adam"
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#13
This passage from Bishop Kallistos' The Orthodox Church may help shed light on the Orthodox position on Original Sin:

Quote:"Most Orthodox theologians reject the idea of 'original guilt', put forward by Augustine and still accepted (albeit in a mitigated form) by the Roman Catholic Church. Humans (Orthodox ususally teach) automatically inherit Adam's corruption and mortality, but not his guilt: they are only guilty in so far as by their own free choice they imitate Adam. Many western Christians used to believe that whatever a person does in the fallen and unredeemed state, since it is tained by original guilt, cannot possibly be pleasing to God: 'Works before Justification,' says the thirteenth of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England, '. . . are not pleasant to God . . . but have the nature of sin.' Orthodox would hesitate to say this. And Orthodox have never held (as Augustine and many others in the west have done) that unbaptized babies, because tainted with original guilt, are consigned by the just God to the everlasting flames of hell.2 The Orthodox picture of fallen humanity is far less sombre than the Augustinian or Calvinist view.
 
"But although Orthodox maintain that humans after the fall still possessed free will and were still capable of good actions, yet they certainly agree with the west in believing that human sin had set up between humanity and God a barrier which humanity by its own efforts could never break down. Sin blocked the path to union with God. Since we could not come to God, He came to us" (Timothy Ware, The Orthodox Church, New Edition, pp. 224-225).

2. Thomas Aquinas, in his discussion of the fall, on the whole followed Augustine, and in particular retained the idea of original guilt; but as regards unbaptized babies, he maintained that they go not to Hell but to Limbo - a view now generally accepted by Roman theologians. So far as I can discover, Orthodox writers do not make use of the idea of Limbo.
It should be noted that an Augustinian view of the fall is found from time to time in Orthodox theological literature; but this is usually the result of western influence. The Orthodox Confession of Peter of Moghila is, as one might expect, strongly Augustinian; on the other hand the Confession of Dositheus is free from Augustinianism.

The section of which I quoted one passage started on page 222. Rather than retype the whole section, I'll summarize by saying that the Orthodox stress man's free will after the fall, acknowledge the "spirital effects of original sin" (mortality, a weakened will, 'a world in which is it easy to do evil and hard to do good'). I think Bishop Kallistos wrongly charges Augustine with believing that man completely lost his free will after the fall (On the Perfection of Man's Righteousness, IV, 9 is quoted). Certainly the Catholic Church agrees with the Orthodox in saying that man still possesses free will and can perform morally good actions.
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#14
Belloc Wrote:Rejection of Peter
Rejection of Purgatory
Failing to Reject(in Moscow's case) KGB

Some say in Orthodox, all will be saved in the end......

*General lack of charity towards fellow Christians, especially the ones closest to them

(Many of us can't help but admire them, despite their faults, and look forward to the day when the schism is healed. Meanwhile, I've seldom met an Orthodox who had anything nice to say about Catholicism or the Pope...)
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#15
Bonifacio, if you get a chance, check out St. Alphonsus Liguori's "Glories of Mary." In Discourse VII on the Assumption he does a good job of explaining why she died despite not having any stain of sin (which of course seems counter-intuitive on its face) [Image: waytogo.gif]
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#16
SaintSebastian Wrote:Bonifacio, if you get a chance, check out St. Alphonsus Liguori's "Glories of Mary." In Discourse VII on the Assumption he does a good job of explaining why she died despite not having any stain of sin (which of course seems counter-intuitive on its face) [Image: waytogo.gif]

Thank you, SaintSebastian, I'll take a look at it when I can. It does sound counter-intuitive on its face, to be honest, that's probably why I was under the impression that the Blessed Mother hadn't actually experienced death.

St. Alphonsus is a saint that I'm particularly devoted to. I've read another book of his, it translates as "Eternal Maxims" in english. It's very, very, very good.

St. Alphonsus, pray for us!
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#17
I had always thought Our Lady hadn't experience physical death as well.  Strangely enough, I think I got this notion from the Byzantine Catholic parish I attended before my conversion.  Thank you for confirming this dogma for us.
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#18
As for original sin, they affirm the Catholic understanding of it at the pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem in 1672 and in the catechism produced thereafter. Check out the sections on Baptism and its effects especially.

(as an aside, the Council of Jerusalem is interesting as it affirms exactly seven sacraments, transubstantiation/accidents/substance, purgatory (without using the name), the Catholic canon of Scripture, etc.).

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#19
Marius Wrote:
Belloc Wrote:Rejection of Peter
Rejection of Purgatory
Failing to Reject(in Moscow's case) KGB

Some say in Orthodox, all will be saved in the end......

*General lack of charity towards fellow Christians, especially the ones closest to them

(Many of us can't help but admire them, despite their faults, and look forward to the day when the schism is healed. Meanwhile, I've seldom met an Orthodox who had anything nice to say about Catholicism or the Pope...)

And there's the FILIOQUE.


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#20
SaintSebastian Wrote:As for original sin, they affirm the Catholic understanding of it at the pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem in 1672 and in the catechism produced thereafter. Check out the sections on Baptism and its effects especially.

(as an aside, the Council of Jerusalem is interesting as it affirms exactly seven sacraments, transubstantiation/accidents/substance, purgatory (without using the name), the Catholic canon of Scripture, etc.).
It's hard to get a handle on the Orthodox faith. They take the attitude of not defining what is in essence a mystery (and they charge Rome with defining too many things), but what is worse is that some confessions/catechisms seem to contradict others.

For example, in an earlier post I quoted The Orthodox Church, which said that man retained free will after the Fall. One Orthodox Catechism (from Metropolitan Archbishop Sotirios), however, seems to imply that man lost free will as a consequence of Original Sin:

Quote:That is original sin. And its consequences? A.) Spiritual death. That is, the separation of man from God, the source of all goodness. B.) Bodily death. That is, the separation of the body from the soul, the return of the body to the earth. C.) The shattering and distortion of the "image." That is, darkness of mind, depravity and corruption of the heart, loss of independence, loss of free will, and tendency towards evil. Since then "the imagination of man's heart is evil "(Genesis 8:21). Man constantly thinks of evil. D.) Guilt. That is, a bad conscience, the shame that made him want to hide from God. E.) Worst of all, original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin.

 
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catorsin.htm


Aside from the book I quoted, yet another Orthodox source seems to distort the teaching of St. Augustine:

"the theory that the human soul is totally corrupted, and man's salvation is God's work alone, predestining man to salvation or to perdition (Augustine)."
http://goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7063

For we know that St. Augustine said, "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us" (Sermo 169, 11, 13: PL 38, 923).

New Advent notes that Predestinarianism (i.e. God arbitrarily sends people either to Heaven or to Hell) dates back to a misinterpretation of St. Augustine.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12376b.htm
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