Ferrara on Lifting of SSPX Excommunications, Vatican II, and Williamson
#31
Michael_G Wrote:
columba Wrote:Jewish power has forced Rome to renege by demanding the SSPX first swallow man-centered Holocaust dogma as a test of religious faith.
It is not dogma; it is fact
Dogma can also be fact. The difference is that dogma cannot be questioned because it is revealed by God or in this case by the idolatrous "god" of Jewish power.
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#32
columba Wrote:
Michael_G Wrote:
columba Wrote:Jewish power has forced Rome to renege by demanding the SSPX first swallow man-centered Holocaust dogma as a test of religious faith.
It is not dogma; it is fact
Dogma can also be fact. The difference is that dogma cannot be questioned because it is revealed by God or in this case by the idolatrous "god" of Jewish power.
Thank you; I accept your correction.  What I meant is that the killing of millions of Jews by the Germans is a matter of fact corroborated by the direct evidence of many people.
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#33
newschoolman Wrote:"freedom of speech" is not unlimited and unqualified.  In other words, all natural rights have their natural limits.
Why do you support grafting limits on Holocaust speech into Catholic Church dogma?
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#34
columba Wrote:
newschoolman Wrote:"freedom of speech" is not unlimited and unqualified.  In other words, all natural rights have their natural limits.
Why do you support grafting limits on Holocaust speech into Catholic Church dogma?

Not dogma!  We are not talking about divine revalation.  But society has a right to protect itself against certain abuses of "freedom of speech".  That is why I said that freedom of speech should not be considered unlimited and unqualified. 
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#35
Michael_G Wrote:the killing of millions of Jews by the Germans is a matter of fact corroborated by the direct evidence of many people.
Then why undermine belief in said evidence with religious taboos that make the evidence non-falsifiable?
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#36
I wonder how Ferrara would feel if Fr. Gruner were the leading voice of traditional Catholicism and his canonical status and hundreds of thousands of Catholics he helps would be regularized "if only he would recant his views on Fatima and accept that it's been over since 2000." 
After all, everyone believes that the third secret was revealed and it was about the attempt on JPII's life.  Only "absurd" revisionists would adopt "looney" conspiracy theories to excite their "eccentric" tastes. 
Isn't it funny how when somebody wants someone to do something like in the case of Ferrara regarding Bishop Williamson, he adopts the language, mannerisms, dismissiveness and arrogance of those that dislike discussing Abortion,  Evolution, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Catholicity of competing economic ideas etc. 
 
 
 
 
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#37
Michael_G Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:If there is indisputable proof of gas chambers and "6 million" why isn't it being brought forward and Williamson publicly discredited, instead of yelling "anti-semite" and "Holocaust denier" with absolutely no logical counter arguments posited?

I suggest that it does not need to be proved and has not needed to be proved for the past 50 years.  The Germans were good at record keeping.  They recorded all the Jews who lived in Germany before 1935, they recorded what happened to them and those other prisoners (note how their careful filing system allowed for the canonisation of St Maximilian Kolbë) and it was not too difficult to subtract one from the other.  Even if someone could show that they put all the Jews in internment camps and most of them died of some galloping contagious disease, would it make any difference to the fact that millions of people of Jesus's own race were dispossessed and rounded up, because of their race, and mistreated to the point where they died?

If this is true, and no proof is needed, and it is indisputable, then there is no reason to fear Bishop Williamson or his views and he is to be ignored as a kook. Just whip out the well kept German records and voila! Williamson is proven an idiot, and let's move on. The fact that this is not happening, and instead people are going bananas, enraged, and yelling epithets, and calling for the Pope's head doesn't seem to fit the "proven" argument. A natural reaction to a kook who doesn't believe the earth is round is to present him the evidence and if he refuses to believe it, ignore him. It would be odd indeed if one yelled him down calling him a denier going hysterical instead.
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#38
Quote:
would it make any difference to the fact that millions of people of Jesus's own race were dispossessed and rounded up, because of their race, and mistreated to the point where they died

How do you know that they were of His "race" anymore than you or I?
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#39
newschoolman Wrote:
Quote:No it wouldn't. There would still be freedom of speech here.Your analogy fails.

Actually, it holds up rather well.  The reason is because "freedom of speech" is not unlimited and unqualified.  In other words, all natural rights have their natural limits.

No, it fails miserably because the US couldn't give a flip about "natural rights" or "natural limits". The US doesn't currently ban holocaust denial speech. Your analogy fails on multiple levels.
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#40
newschoolman Wrote:
columba Wrote:Why do you support grafting limits on Holocaust speech into Catholic Church dogma?
Not dogma!  We are not talking about divine revalation.  But society has a right to protect itself against certain abuses of "freedom of speech".  That is why I said that freedom of speech should not be considered unlimited and unqualified.
From your post #7:
Quote:2) Bishop Williamson should simply recant (why not?).  Not only the Vatican -- but even Bishop Fellay seems to be demanding this.
Acceding to the Vatican demand would set a precedent requiring of Holocaust beliefs and speech limits as a condition for remitting excommunication and for religious office.

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