Where are the historians?
#1
Through this whole SSPX mess conspicuously absent are the historians.... I have read hysterical bishops and theologians saying that bishop Williamson's historical claims are just "stupid" but where are the historians? The real, credentialed, actual professor-type historians?

Their absence from this public dialog is beginning to reveal something about the nature of truth claims and public power.

Has anyone read any articles written by real historians entering into this controversy?

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#2
I don't think it is the nature of professors to get into a huge media frenzy.  This issue isn't about the truth, it's about politics. 

I know for a fact that Bishop Williamson subscribed to the Barnes Review and Journal of Historical Review, or the website that is left of it.  These are not "The real, credentialed, actual professor-type historians" but are rather pseudo-academic bodies, both initially founded by Willis Carto, that are devoted to Holocaust denial and Jewish conspiracies.

If Bishop Williamson had studied the issue from other sources as well, I doubt he would have made the statements he did.  Certainly, the sources he has cited for his views on 9/11 and Nazi gas chambers such as 911mysteries.com or The Leuchter Report are thoroughly debunked.   
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#3
My daughter plays with the child of a real historian - his specialty is WWII.  When I see him I'll ask and report back.
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#4
PeterII Wrote:I don't think it is the nature of professors to get into a huge media frenzy.  This issue isn't about the truth, it's about politics. 

I know for a fact that Bishop Williamson subscribed to the Barnes Review and Journal of Historical Review, or the website that is left of it.  These are not "The real, credentialed, actual professor-type historians" but are rather pseudo-academic bodies, both initially founded by Willis Carto, that are devoted to Holocaust denial and Jewish conspiracies.

If Bishop Williamson had studied the issue from other sources as well, I doubt he would have made the statements he did.  Certainly, the sources he has cited for his views on 9/11 and Nazi gas chambers such as 911mysteries.com or The Leuchter Report are thoroughly debunked.   

Sorry, but that's rather glib. Leuchter was smeared and Germar Rudolf is in prison. While the Bishop may not have the best sources the fact of the matter is that certain positions are verboten in academia. One cannot necessarily easily find the truth in "respectable" journals.

Can you honestly say that a person should remain silent about their suspicions regarding 9/11? The bishop might have been mistaken in his choice of sources, but at least he was honest.



Another thing - the fact of the matter is that anyone who studies conspiracy from a Catholic point of view will not be treated seriously in academia. In other words, Pius IX, Leo XIII and Pius X could be dismissed as relying on pseudo-academic sources when speaking about the conspiracy against the Church. Now that is an untenable position for a Catholic to take. Being part of the academy doesn't mean you know the truth or are concerned about truth. Quite the opposite when it comes to the subject of anti-Christian conspiracy.


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#5
frerejacques Wrote:My daughter plays with the child of a real historian - his specialty is WWII.  When I see him I'll ask and report back.


Yes, please do report back, I am curious what real historians think.

I met one professor, when I was taking a history class, and asked him about this question. He said "historical facts are one thing, and what groups do with this information is another."

Meaning he suggested that history is often used to fuel political agendas. In this sense he might agree with Bp Williamson, when he said that the Jews use the holocaust as a way of extorting money from Europe to pay to fund Israel.
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#6
winoblue1 Wrote:In this sense he might agree with Bp Williamson, when he said that the Jews use the holocaust as a way of extorting money from Europe to pay to fund Israel.

The exact number of Jews killed by the Nazis or even the methods applied in order to murder them should be open to honest discussion and inquiry. This being said, nobody seriously questions that many of them were targeted, persecuted and killed by Adolf Hitler's regime.

However, Jewish groups using the "Holocaust" as a way of extorting money from Europe - amongst other agendas - is a FACT, a sickening FACT. I read a book once, many years ago, written by someone who identifies himself as a Jew that exposed this "holocaust industry", as he described it, for what it is: a money making machine.
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#7
I wonder if Bp Williamson will have to recant his statement regarding the "Holocaust Industry" as well?

Honestly, I am wondering what his reply will be. He has so many possibilities. I would like him to give the Vatican what it wants, but also remind them that the Holocaust is not a dogma of the faith.... and that if they are asking for Bishops to recant matters of opinion on historical events, why not start with those that publically question the Assumption, Immaculate Conception and the Resurrection.

I am sure he can attach a list of names to his letter of recantation.
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#8
This whole "Williamson Affair" should serve as an eye-opener to all of us, especially to those who became more enthusiastic after the motu proprio and the lifting of the excommunications.

If anything, this affair has shown us how incredibly sick Rome still is. Perhaps this is a warning from God so that catholics don't lower their guards.

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#9
I would say this whole "Williamson Affair" reveals how weak Rome is, and how cowardly Rome is, in reaction to the Jews and the modern media.

Rome has now shown that the Jews are leading the dialog here....and that it is more important to profess the dogma of Jews to be a Catholic bishop than the dogma of the faith.

One just wonders why? Considering how small a percentage of the population they are, how they can be so powerful.....

Someone said that the Jews have always been "odious to the nations" and it seems clear from this affair, and also considering how it is tied to their international program of the creation and maintenance of Israel, that they certainly are odious to the nations and causing nothing but trouble.

We are living through this period right now, that the US is drawn into a war in the middle east to simply defend Israel, which was created as a result of a guilt complex reaction after the Holocaust.

When will they just shut up and leave Catholics alone?
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#10
"Real historians"? Who's to say what they are? In his interview Bishop Williamson foolishly only referred to "revisionist" historians as his trusted authorities. Another man could just as easily and foolishly refer to the opposite extreme of "holocaust industry" historians to "prove" his case. Both sides could come up with evidence, speculations, conclusions etc, but the truth remains the truth, whatever it is. Historians are just people who select evidence to support a view or an argument in the end, no matter what their worldly credibility. Their work brings us only a little closer to the truth (sometimes much further from the truth) than the work of a butcher, baker or candle-stick maker. It's a job, an industry, just like any other.
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