Why the pro-life movement has failed
#61
But you still haven't provided any proof that your first proposition is true: that Jews are the reason abortion is legal. We keep asking, and you keep saying it's just true and that's all there is to it. I'm still waiting for any backup of your statement that most Jews support abortion!
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#62
Anastasia Wrote:But you still haven't provided any proof that your first proposition is true: that Jews are the reason abortion is legal.

Jews are a major reason. I think I've provided a lot of evidence. Are they "the reason?" I'm not sure.

Can you quote me to the effect that I said "Jews are the (the main reason, or the only reason) reason abortion is legal."?

I said abortion might not be legal if people had the will to stand up to Jews. Is that absolutely true? I spoke in qualified terms - I think it could be true.

Quote:We keep asking, and you keep saying it's just true and that's all there is to it. I'm still waiting for any backup of your statement that most Jews support abortion!

No, you haven't asked, you've just said over and over again "some are for some are against" and ignored what I've posted but I have provided evidence. I already pointed out the GSS surveys. Here are some links quoting the surveys. You cannot really believe that most Jews do not support legal abortion.

This one says 80% believe it should be legal for any reason

Here's another one:

Quote:Here are the results (GSS data):

Percent in favor of abortion for any reason
Jews 77.8
Extreme liberals 62.0


Percent who agree that a person should get a police permit to own a gun
Jews 93.2
Extreme liberals 81.2

Percent who agree that the U.S. should take an active part in the world
Jews 85.9
All Americans 67.2

Percent who really like Israel
Jews 90.4
All Americans 34.0

Percent who agree that immigrants improve America by bringing new ideas and culture
Jews 90.6
All Americans 57.0

http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

At any rate, you can see that the ADL, which is supposed to protect Jews from "defamation", supported the Supreme Court's ruling overturning the law against partial birth abortion child murder. Yet the B'nai B'rith has this sort of chutzpah:

B'nai B'rith compared HLI's charge that Jews are disproportionally represented in the pro-choice movement to the "blood libel" of the Middle Ages, and unsuccessfully lobbied the Catholic archdiocese to deny HLI the use of the Montreal basilica.

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0695/9506057.htm

http://brianakira.wordpress.com/2008/07/...in-israel/

First of all there is very good reason to believe St. Simon of Trent was a victim of ritual murder, so to bring up the "blood libel" as though it were a settled issue is hardly legtimate. Especially since no one denies that abortion is happening, and that Jews are supporting it! Henry Morgenthaler awarded the highest civilian honor in Canada!

http://bloodpassover.com

Secondly it is ridiculous to be a Jewish organization defending abortion and then accuse those that say Jewish groups defend abortion to be guilty of "blood libel." Unless they say anyone who calls abortion murder is guilty of "blood libel."

Either everyone who thinks abortion is murder is guilty of blood libel, or Jewish organizations that are supposed to defend Jews against malicious charges yet defend sucking the brains out of infants as part of our Constitution do defend abortion and therefore the statement that they are disproportionately involved in supporting legal abortion in this country is absolutely true, and the claim it is "blood libel" is a lie!








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#63
The ADL does not necessarily reflect the views of most Jews, just as Catholics for a Free Choice does not represent the views of most Catholics.  And linking to a single survey conducted by GSS (who are they, exactly?) is not proof either. Surveys are the easiest thing in the world to fix, that's why republicans and democrats at election time both trot out surveys which say the majority supports their view. The only evidence you've provided the Jews are a major reason is to throw out a couple of names; by that logic, I could claim Catholics are for abortion, too. After all, there's John Kerry, the Kennedys, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and even Bob Casey isn't as strongly pro-life as we all thought.
It's such a cop-out to say the Jews are behind it-that way, you can feel like you're doing something if all you've ever done is complain about the Jews from your keyboard. Here are a few other things we could try: encouraging rabbi's to preach about the evil of abortion, actually doing something about all those strong Catholic pro-aborts instead of focusing on those in other religions. All the other options I spoke of have led to a gradually decline in abortions. And my point stands :
 b[Image: censored.gif]ing about the jewish conspiracies has yet to achieve anything in the abortion fight.

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#64
Anastasia Wrote:The ADL does not necessarily reflect the views of most Jews, just as Catholics for a Free Choice does not represent the views of most Catholics. 

Sorry, but Catholics for a Free Choice is obviously opposed to what Catholicism and what devout Catholics stand for, and the ADL represents the B'nai B'rith, which is a very powerful and important Jewish organization that is representative of the Jewish community.

Quote:And linking to a single survey conducted by GSS (who are they, exactly?) is not proof either. Surveys are the easiest thing in the world to fix, that's why republicans and democrats at election time both trot out surveys which say the majority supports their view.

This is GSS

http://www.norc.org/GSS+Website/

So there's no proof Jews overwhelmingly support the Democratic party? There's no proof the Jews are overwhelmingly liberal, there's no evidence I can show you that will make you admit it.

Give me a break, you can't sincerely believe most Jews and the leading Jewish organizations are not pro-abortion.

Quote:The only evidence you've provided the Jews are a major reason is to throw out a couple of names; by that logic, I could claim Catholics are for abortion, too. After all, there's John Kerry, the Kennedys, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and even Bob Casey isn't as strongly pro-life as we all thought

Utter nonsense. There isn't even remotely comparison. Everyone knows they stand opposed to Catholicism. I have provided a great deal of examples and evidence as to the overwhelming support of mainstream Jews and their leadership for abortion.

Quote:It's such a cop-out to say the Jews are behind it-that way, you can feel like you're doing something if all you've ever done is complain about the Jews from your keyboard.

No, it's a cop-out to deny the truth about what they're doing and use that as a pretext to accuse those who point out that truth of doing nothing.


Quote:Here are a few other things we could try: encouraging rabbi's to preach about the evil of abortion, actually doing something about all those strong Catholic pro-aborts instead of focusing on those in other religions.

So Catholics shouldn't worry about other religions? Because other religions and their attack on our society and on our faith isn't our business? I absolutely support taking those pro-abortion Catholics to task. But I also support taking pro-abortion Jews to task. Do you?

Quote:All the other options I spoke of have led to a gradually decline in abortions. And my point stands :
 b[Image: censored.gif]ing about the jewish conspiracies has yet to achieve anything in the abortion fight.

Well, that's your opinion, but it isn't BS by any stretch of the imagination, and it is the truth, I think you should accept it is the truth and start condemning these Jewish organizations promoting abortion.
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#65
Yes, I do believe most  Jews (serious about their faith) are against abortion, have you ever met any Orthodox? The Hasidic Jews? It's analogous to Catholicism in that way: the doctrines are against it, but that doesn't prevent individuals from ignoring that fact. That's why I mentioned all those pro-abortion Catholics. Sure they call themselves Catholics, just as Gloria Steinam calls herself Jewish, they just ignore all the tenets of their faith. Just because you say the ADL is representative of the Jewish people, doesn't make it so. If you've ever met any devout Jewish people, instead of simply assuming they're all busy scheming against Catholics, you might know that. And of course, I think we should denounce pro-abortion Jews, we should focus on the beam in our own eye first. It's purely your own opinion that jewish liberals support Obama due to abortion; yet again, no evidence.
Frankly , the only result from these blame-the-jews rants is to make YOU feel better; as though you're actually doing something to combat abortion.
With apologies to Milton-
 They also serve, who only sit and bitch.
The only reason I've continued this debate is to try and make sure people don't think all traditionalists think this crap. Now that that's done, I'm officially finished.

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#66
Anastasia Wrote:Yes, I do believe most  Jews (serious about their faith) are against abortion, have you ever met any Orthodox? The Hasidic Jews?

I wasn't talking about "observant Jews," although I think you have an exaggerated idea of their opposition to abortion. I made my case very clearly. There are plenty of Jews who are very serious about their Jewish identity, who are very serious about being Jews, serious about supporting Israel, etc. Those are the one's I'm talking about. Now they may not practice Judaism as it was practiced but they certainly have adopted a sort of liberal religion that is to a large degree very hostile to Christianity and very prone to support abortion.

Quote:It's analogous to Catholicism in that way: the doctrines are against it, but that doesn't prevent individuals from ignoring that fact. That's why I mentioned all those pro-abortion Catholics. Sure they call themselves Catholics, just as Gloria Steinam calls herself Jewish, they just ignore all the tenets of their faith. Just because you say the ADL is representative of the Jewish people, doesn't make it so.

Why don't you admit the vast majority of Jews are pro-abortion?

Quote: If you've ever met any devout Jewish people, instead of simply assuming they're all busy scheming against Catholics, you might know that.

You are imputing things to me I've never said. Although I certainly think there is a very strong anti-Christian current in Judaism, and it is very naive to believe otherwise.

Quote:And of course, I think we should denounce pro-abortion Jews, we should focus on the beam in our own eye first.

But you won't even admit that the majority of Jews are pro-abortion.

Quote:It's purely your own opinion that jewish liberals support Obama due to abortion; yet again, no evidence.

You must be kidding. I'm sure they support him for many reasons, abortion is one of the most important, without a doubt. I've shown you a lot of links and evidence that strongly suggest that.

Quote:Frankly , the only result from these blame-the-jews rants is to make YOU feel better; as though you're actually doing something to combat abortion.

No, they get the truth out about people who are the deadly enemies of the Catholic Faith, who make demands about how the Pope should not "undermine" Vatican II, when John XXIII reached for Jules Isaac's hand.

Quote:With apologies to Milton-
 They also serve, who only sit and bitch.
The only reason I've continued this debate is to try and make sure people don't think all traditionalists think this crap. Now that that's done, I'm officially finished.

Oh yes, we must be free of any taint of any accusation of anti-semitism, it's so very important that Jews never assume that Traditional Catholics are willing to stand up to them. Otherwise they might think we're anti-semitic, and that would be a sin, to say things that make Jews angry, like the Apostles, the Fathers of the Church, many Saints, the Popes, etc.

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#67
Telemaque Wrote:
newtolatin Wrote:I have looked into the allegations of some Jewish conspiracy in the financial field, and from the information I have been able to find have concluded that that aspect at least is absurd. Yes, it is true that Jews were financiers, and that as financiers they did certain things.

What did they do?
This discussion occurred a really long time ago, and like Sherlock Holmes I try not to clutter up my mind with useless information. I won't argue the point with you; I myself was satisfied with my findings.

Quote:
Quote:However, it is also true that at the same time there were other financiers who were not Jewish who did the exact same things. Guess what? The fact that Jewish financiers were doing bad things does not provide evidence of a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.

It provides evidence of their power.
Oh, great argument! If all the financiers were Jewish, that would provide evidence of a Jewish plot, but the fact that they are not all Jewish also provides evidence that there is a plot! how about it provides evidence of just what I said, which is that financiers do certain things, Jews are over-represented among financiers, so a larger proportion of Jews do certain things?

Quote:Here's a tiny sample of evidence of Jewish ambitions:

Ben Gurion Predicts a "Supreme Court of Mankind in Jerusalem"

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bengur62.jpg

(I've looked at the page in the Jan 16, 1962 edition of LOOK at the library)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.ht...8389639EDE

"The League of Nations is a Jewish Idea, And Jerusalem will become the Capital of the World's Peace"
And Hitler wanted to take over the world and said some pretty grandiose stuff too. Does that prove that Catholics are plotting to take over the world?

Quote:
Quote:Proximity does not equal causation. I have discussed what the financiers did with an actual financier, and that was normal behavior, it is what financiers do. And this is why I do not belive in the Jewish conspiracy theories.

Well, I'm glad you've "discussed what they do" - I doubt that gives you an understanding of what's really going on. I don't claim to know what's going on - but I know that Werner Sombart said the Jews became the leading financial power in England in 1720. I know the words Disraeli puts into the mouth of his Rothschild character. I know that Quigley names the Rothschilds and Ernest Cassel as being major promoters of the Triple Entente.
Great, you are well-read in Jewish conspiracy theory. Big deal--that's like reading Protestant interpretations of the Bible.


And yes, the Jews were financial powers in Europe all along because they could lend money at interest and Catholics couldn't. So, your point is...?

Quote:
Quote:There has been mutual antagonism between the Jews and Christians; however, that is still not evidence of the type of conspiracy which so many on this board allege. Is there a conspiracy among Catholics to get rid of Jews? And yet there is a great deal more evidence of Catholics trying to get rid of them than there is the other way around.

Catholics want to convert the Jews. Jews want to destroy Catholicism. That's the reality, you can face the reality, or stick your head in the sand. When the Pope faces global criticism over a prayer for the conversion of the Jews, it ought to tell you something.
if someone wanted to posit a Catholic plot to get rid of all the Jews, believe me, they could find the evidence, no problem.

The fact that someone can put together some sort of argument by prooftexting does not mean that there is a plot, as we can see by looking at the imaginary Catholic plot. The fact that a "Catholic" killed half the Jews in the world? The fact that Orthodox and Catholic nations had pograms which killed and ran out Jews? The fact that all Catholics consider Jews perfidious?

Quote:
Quote:What I object to is the comments about Jews due to the involvement of some Jews in some activities which were also engaged in by non-Jews. That's what I object to. If there is a plot, then it is not a Jewish plot, nor are all or even most Jews involved in it.

I guess then you object to the New Testament, because it mentions "fear of the Jews" without saying which Jews, or without stipulating that it wasn't "all Jews." The Jews have organizations which pursue anti-Christian ends. The Jews dominate many anti-Christian organizations. They do it in large part because they are Jews and hate Christianity.
Duh! It's really quite obvious what was meant.

Quote:
Quote:On this board it seems like all too often a topic comes up and the next thing a person knows is that it comes up as a Jewish plot.

The Jews are involved in a lot of things.

Quote:So are we supposed to think that the Jews are behind abortion, and that if everyone knew the Jews were behind abortion, then everyone would say, Oh, right, if the Jews are for it, then it must be wrong? Or what? I mean, what on earth were you saying with that?

Well, the ordinary people are suspicious of the agendas of groups they do not belong to.
I hadn't really noticed people's being suspicious on the basis of group. Like I am not suspicious of Protestant or Eskimo or men's groups unless I see that they have the types of ideas which would induce suspicion.


Quote:If someone really understands the ulterior motives behind abortion advocates ((e.g. Frank Schumer is a ferocious supporter of abortion in the US but supports an Israeli organization that tries to convince women not to have them)
I looked over this link, but was apparently unable to find the part that you were referring too. It seems that Israel itself is pretty much pro-abortion, and if the point of being pro-abortion is to get rid of a different group, then why allow it among one's own group?

However, I did notice one thing overall. The idea they seemed to be expressing was about what "Catholic" supporters of Obama claimed he was advocating: that rather than attempt to make abortion illegal, efforts to help women not "need" to abort their children should be made.

And for the Jews in Israel to do this, considering their fall towards a demographic crisis, makes total sense.

Quote:
Quote:then they might start to see that the people promoting abortion are not the "broad-minded" people, but the anti-Christian people. But that is not even my point.
And that would indeed be a point if they were advocating the legality of abortion only for Christians.


Quote:My point is this: if the Jews promote abortion and if they were held accountable as Jews for doing that, then they would realize there is a severe price their community will have to pay in terms of its reputation for doing what they are doing. That is only fair.
That's ridiculous. Should others judge Catholics as Catholics for the 50+% which calls itself "pro-choice"? Should others judge whites as whites for calling themselves "pro-choice? Etc.To single out a specific group as you have done is to simply show your already-existing animus towards the group, nothing more.

Quote:[quote]The article was good: it showed that the problem is that there are roots to the pro-abortion way of thinking which are not being addressed by the opponents of legalized abortion. However, focusing on the Jews as the source of the problem is 1. absurd, and 2. distracting.

ABSURD? No, it's ABSURD to say the Jews are not one of the main forces behind legal abortion in this country. That's the reality - it needs to be admitted and exposed.
Yeah? Well, you haven't shown that, and I would also say that considering the support aboriton has among the general population including Catholics that the Jews are well out-numbered as "main forces behind abortion."
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#68
Good luck, newtolatin! I realized eventually debate was pointless, his mind is made up. The fact that you could use those exact same arguments to say catholics are behind abortion, or methodists, or men in general are behind abortion, made no difference. 
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#69
This sucks, that was a pretty good article I thought and could raise some interesting questions, but the whole thread was hijacked by a bunch of anti-Semitic idiots. What a waste.

Perhaps I'll repost it or something similar to the new theology forum, maybe the anti-Semites will off sowing stars of David on childrens' clothes or something and we can have a decent discussion.



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#70
Charles Schumer supports Friends of Efrat

In other words - he is rabidly pro-abortion for America, but supports pregnancy center type charities in Israel.

http://samsonblinded.org/efrat/us_senate.html
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