Report: Dresden bombing deaths overestimated
#1
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26977893/

[Image: 459a6853-ca94-4b98-879b-69b096b08ca4.hmedium.jpg]

Report: Dresden bombing deaths overestimated New commission finds some 25,000 killed, far fewer than previous reports
The Associated Pressupdated 3:17 p.m. CT, Wed., Oct. 1, 2008<script language="javascript"> function UpdateTimeStamp(pdt) { var n = document.getElementById("udtD"); if(pdt != '' && n && window.DateTime) { var dt = new DateTime(); pdt = dt.T2D(pdt); if(dt.GetTZ(pdt)) {n.innerHTML = dt.D2S(pdt,(('false'.toLowerCase()=='false')?false:true));} } } UpdateTimeStamp('633584890359230000');</script>

BERLIN - The Allied firebombing of the eastern German city of Dresden in 1945 killed no more than 25,000 people — far fewer than scholars' previous estimates running as high as 135,000 — a special commission has found.

The team of a dozen experts, including university professors, archivists and military historians, said Wednesday that four years of research so far has confirmed 18,000 deaths and showed that police and city administrators at the time believed there were about 25,000 victims of the bombing.

Since the end of World War II, scholars have varied in their tally of people killed by waves of British and U.S. bombers on Feb. 13-14, 1945. Some estimates have run to 135,000 or more. In his 2005 book on the bombing, British historian Frederick Taylor argued the real toll was between 25,000 and 40,000.

The high civilian death toll in Dresden and the devastation of the centuries-old city center have been a source of controversy for decades — as has the dispute over whether the Allies were justified in targeting the refugee-choked city. The Allies hoped the bombing would hurt the Nazis where they would feel it most, and help force their capitulation.

Recently, neo-Nazis in Germany have talked of 500,000 to 1 million victims, calling the raid a "bombing Holocaust" and comparing it to Adolf Hitler's murder of 6 million Jews. They accused Britain and the United States of committing mass murder.

It was after the far-right NPD party won seats in Saxony's parliament in 2004 and gave greater voice to these claims that state officials decided a commission was needed to put the matter to rest.

"The commission, in this preliminary report, believes there were a maximum of 25,000 people who died during the February aerial attack," a team statement said Wednesday. The research is to continue until 2009.

Cowering in basements
Nazi authorities had failed to provide adequate air raid shelters for Dresden. That left people cowering in basements where many were asphyxiated or buried by collapsing buildings. The town's anti-aircraft guns had been removed for use against the approaching Soviets, letting the bomber crews take undisturbed and deadly aim.

The fire made superheated air rise rapidly, creating a vacuum at ground level that produced winds strong enough to uproot trees and suck people into the flames. Some who managed to get through the blinding sparks and fiery debris staggered into the Grosser Garden park, where many were killed by a second bomber wave.

But the exact death toll has always been a question.

Nazi propaganda from 1945 put the toll at some 200,000. Under communist East Germany, authorities agreed upon 35,000. The neo-Nazis offered a sharply inflated figure.

The team of experts has pored through more than 2,600 linear feet (800 linear meters) of files in the Dresden state archives and interviewed dozens of witnesses.

The commission has also consulted studies on aerial attacks, rescue operations, firefighting, and archaeological evidence.

Despite the chaos during the final days of the war and the devastation of the bombing, they said they found that records of the recovery and burial of the dead from the raid was "remarkably orderly."

"Through this work of the commission the victims get a face and a name," said Dresden Mayor Helma Orosz. "Behind every single victim is ... suffering and we should remember this."
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#2
The NeoNazis should demand an apology for Dresden-Denial.
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#3
Most real estimates put the number at at least 150,000, while the International Red Cross and the Nazi German newsreels put it at 280,000 or 300,000 (round number for Nazi newsreels and radio).

This is another example, of how Allied war transgressions are underestimated under pressure of political correctness, and to uphold the view that the German people are "collectively guilty" and the worst type of criminals.

This is not a real research. This is an estimate after 60 years with the clear intention to suppress historical facts which are coming up, and which put some nuance to the story fed to Western Europeans, Americans etc. since 1945.

History is written by the victorious always. It does not mean the defeated were the better party, but it does mean, that not all of such "research" can be taken seriously.
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#4
I think the Red Cross in February 1945, a neutral and apolitical organization, was wrong. All kinds of statistics have been manipulated, but the mass media and the massive manipulation is recognized only by a few thinking persons. Most people are too ignorant and stupid to even be able to read this article or know where Dresden is, but the other "educated" part is so entrenched in stereotypical views of world history and 20th century history - according to their own ideologies of American neoconservatism, or of Marxism-Leninism, or of Liberalism - that they do not even contemplate this may be a fraud. However, text analysis proves this report is a fraud and a political ploy aimed against the (objectively not really that good and fine) NPD party, which is in German parliament and which the ruling establishment parties and foreign diplomats want to be crushed.

But just read

Quote:

It was after the far-right NPD party won seats in Saxony's parliament in 2004 and gave greater voice to these claims that state officials decided a commission was needed to put the matter to rest.

"The commission, in this preliminary report, believes there were a maximum of 25,000 people who died during the February aerial attack," a team statement said Wednesday. The research is to continue until 2009.

 

But of course, despite the research not having been finalized, the media is already informed that a "maximum" of 25,000 people were killed during the criminal bombing of civilian areas of the great city of Dresden in February 1945.

 

The commission was state-commissioned, and is therefore hugely political. Not an independent historians' team acting on its own initiative and its own funding.

 

That is the problem with other WW2 claims of statistics (you think to which I apply it) too. In federal Germany of course primarily, which was made to believe in collective guilt of the entire German people, but also in all Allied and especially U.S. American, French and British renditions of history. Why? Because in virtually all universities, the state, the federal authorities, or the rich business people working for the authorities or linked to that "elite", are supporting the university and the History Faculties etc. And they do not bite the hand they are fed from. They adapt. Like slaves. Most things cannot be researched or criticized, because of their (after 60 or 90 years) political value.

 

It is, by the way, still seen as "Nazi" history, that the assassination of Archduke Franz-Ferdinand in Sarajevo by a Serbian agent, was supported by secret services of the Entente powers (especially Britain and France) in collaboration with the anti-Austrian and imperialistic Serbian Kingdom.

 

Also, still, in history, the blame is put on the German Empire for the start of the First World War.

 

The sad thing is, that we may know better, but that unless we get into the political elite (and there we will be neutralized once again, I fear), the true nuanced and complex version of history will never be taught in schools and not even in universities and in most books, because the arrogance of the elites and the most-financed faculties is dominant and prevents any real look into these historical themes without a biased view.

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#5
Wow.  Don't you love the irony?
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#6

Quote:Also, still, in history, the blame is put on the German Empire for the start of the First World War.


I don't know of any credible source that believes that or teaches that. 

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#7
Aviano Wrote:Okay, so what does this proveHuh?

If we found out that fewer were killed at Hiroshima or Nagasaki than was previously reported, would that make everything okay? Any less horrific?

Is this in some way supposed to support Bishop Williamson's obnoxious comments about the Jews/gas chambers/Holocaust?

I've been to Dachau. It's evil and depressing. If Jews weren't killed by gas chambers, they were still killed. In deliberate and horrible ways.

No one's saying that Williamson's skepticism makes the massacre of Jews during WWII any less evil.  We all know it's evil.  The reason questions about "the Holocaust" have significance is because the Jews have made a political tool out of it.  The Japanese have not used the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima as a justification for imperialist policies, nor do they use it to claim moral high ground or to establish themselves as the perpetual victims of the ages (they're far too proud for that and would never sink to such levels).  If the Jews did not try to guilt the rest of us into submission (even to the point of trying to get us to deny the "anti-semitic" Catholic Faith), this question would have a fraction of the significance it does now.  The reason Holocaust revisionism is intriguing is because the Jews have played it up as much as possible to the point of absurdity, and it would make sense to inflate numbers and exaggerate facts if it strengthened their position.  Once the Jews stop using the Holocaust as a strategic weapon, Holocaust revisionism will lose all of its appeal.
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#8
Aviano Wrote:Okay, so what does this proveHuh?

If we found out that fewer were killed at Hiroshima or Nagasaki than was previously reported, would that make everything okay? Any less horrific?

Is this in some way supposed to support Bishop Williamson's obnoxious comments about the Jews/gas chambers/Holocaust?

I've been to Dachau. It's evil and depressing. If Jews weren't killed by gas chambers, they were still killed. In deliberate and horrible ways.

Dachau never had much Jews detained in it. Mostly priests, Poles, gypsies, and "asocial persons" (exhibitionists, some homosexuals [but only 0,2 % of Germany's total declared homosexual population at the time, another fact the gays do not like to mention], and thieves) as well as German political prisoners (French [Jewish] socialist Leon Blum, Kurt Schnussnigg, former Nazi Party member Hjalmar Schacht). The Dutch anti-Nazi priest and episcopal delegate Fr. Titus Brandsma was killed there by typhus and euthanized with phenol injection in 1942.

The bishop Johannes Neuhäusler was there in 1945, during the worst time, and he described the camp. There was never a gas chamber in use at Dachau. This is even admitted by no one less than the late Simon Wiesenthal.
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#9
This "report" is purely political. It is political propaganda against NeoNazis. I do not trust the Neo-Nazi claim of one million either of course. I only believe the 200,000 of the Red Cross at that time. They knew. They were independent. They had neutral Swiss workers. Not Allied judges or Socialist 21st century politicians.
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#10
Quote:Dachau never had much Jews detained in it. Mostly priests, Poles, gypsies, and "asocial persons" (exhibitionists, some homosexuals [but only 0,2 % of Germany's total declared homosexual population at the time, another fact the gays do not like to mention], and thieves) as well as German political prisoners (French [Jewish] socialist Leon Blum, Kurt Schnussnigg, former Nazi Party member Hjalmar Schacht). The Dutch anti-Nazi priest and episcopal delegate Fr. Titus Brandsma was killed there by typhus and euthanized with phenol injection in 1942.

The bishop Johannes Neuhäusler was there in 1945, during the worst time, and he described the camp. There was never a gas chamber in use at Dachau. This is even admitted by no one less than the late Simon Wiesenthal.

I find these types of "facts" to be disingenous.  A much more thorough and accurate report of what happened at Dachau can be read here: http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/  There were definitely gas chambers at Dachau, and one designed for killing people, although it is inconclusive whether it was used for that purpose.  But this is only ONE camp.  The Nazis literally built thousands of camps for various purposes, the most famous being the extermination camps, mainly situated in Poland.   


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