The Errors of Opus Dei
#51
Please read my post completely before responding to it.  Here it is again:

Quote: The Church is certainly  a refuge for the poor, and only the Church should help the poor.  But "first and foremost" is borderline heresy.

The Church is primarily concerned with CONVERTING sinners and spreading the Good News to All men.  Members of the Church, having been regenerated, should certainly practice Acts of Charity, which will merit them additional Graces and benefit them in the next life.  It might be as small as putting money in the donation basket, it might be helping at a soup kitchen, or it might mean rebuking the sinner.  The Church, and only the Church (not the government) should coordinate relief efforts for the poor, since in many cases the poor are in need of spiritual medicine.

As far as socialism, the original quote about "first and foremost" has the savor of the Liberation Theology heresy, which is shot through with socialism.
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#52
DK Wrote:socialism? lad dont leave me here>
sip sip

Shoot, I got sucked in.
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#53
(08-17-2009, 10:52 AM)James02 Wrote: The Church is primarily concerned with CONVERTING sinners and spreading the Good News to All men. 

False. The Church is primarily concerned to represent God in the Earth. This is realized by praying, teaching, caring, but all this world oriented functions are secondary to the God oriented function. Do you really think that the sinners and other men are the primary object?

In the good old times Matt 28:19-20  was considered as the commandment for the activity of some priests and religious (for others like the monks and nuns at the contemplative monasteries  the prayer and meditation was the primary way to worship God); and Matt 25:31-46 together with Gen 1: 28 was the commandment for the layperson, how they shall worship God.

When did it changed toward the exclusive evangelization? Vatican II emphasized that the active evangelization is mission for the lay Catholics too, but not as exclusive and primary. This is clear in the Gaudium et Spes. Here is the Table of Contents. The primary goal for the layperson did not changed: procreate, rule the Earth, care about others.
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#54
(08-17-2009, 11:35 AM)glgas Wrote:
(08-17-2009, 10:52 AM)James02 Wrote: The Church is primarily concerned with CONVERTING sinners and spreading the Good News to All men. 

False. The Church is primarily concerned to represent God in the Earth. This is realized by praying, teaching, caring, but all this world oriented functions are secondary to the God oriented function. Do you really think that the sinners and other men are the primary object?

In the good old times Matt 28:19-20  was considered as the commandment for the activity of some priests and religious (for others like the monks and nuns at the contemplative monasteries  the prayer and meditation was the primary way to worship God); and Matt 25:31-46 together with Gen 1: 28 was the commandment for the layperson, how they shall worship God.

When did it changed toward the exclusive evangelization? Vatican II emphasized that the active evangelization is mission for the lay Catholics too, but not as exclusive and primary. This is clear in the Gaudium et Spes. Here is the Table of Contents. The primary goal for the layperson did not changed: procreate, rule the Earth, care about others.

Canon, #1752:

"...the salvation of souls, which must always be the supreme law in the Church, is to be kept before one’s eyes."
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#55
Amen.

And no matter how you want to phrase it, the statement: "1) Christ's Church is first and foremost a refuge for the  poor, miserable, and sinful." is false.  Refuge of sinners is probably an ok statement.  FIRST and FOREMOST a refuge for the poor and miserable is blatantly false, as gglas now appears to concede.
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#56
(08-17-2009, 11:45 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Canon, #1752:

"...the salvation of souls, which must always be the supreme law in the Church, is to be kept before one’s eyes."

Here is the full context:

CHAPTER II.

THE MANNER OF PROCEEDING IN THE TRANSFER OF PASTORS

Can.  1748 If the good of souls or the necessity or advantage of the Church demands that a pastor be transferred from a parish which he is governing usefully to another parish or another office, the bishop is to propose the transfer to him in writing and persuade him to consent to it out of love of God and souls.

Can.  1749 If the pastor does not intend to submit to the counsel and persuasions of the bishop, he is to explain the reasons in writing.

Can.  1750 Notwithstanding the reasons alleged, if the bishop decides not to withdraw from his proposal, he is to consider the reasons which favor or oppose the transfer with two pastors selected according to the norm of ⇒ can. 1742, §1. If he then decides to implement the transfer, however, he is to repeat the paternal exhortations to the pastor.

Can.  1751 §1. When this has been done, if the pastor still refuses and the bishop thinks that the transfer must be made, he is to issue a decree of transfer, establishing that the parish will be vacant after the lapse of a set time.

§2. If this period of time has passed without action, he is to declare the parish vacant.

Can.  1752 In cases of transfer the prescripts of ⇒ can. 1747 are to be applied, canonical equity is to be observed, and the salvation of souls, which must always be the supreme law in the Church, is to be kept before one’s eyes.


#1752 concerns about the pastors of the parishes and their dispositions. To jump from here to the conclusion that the salvation of the souls (by converting the sinners and teaching the good news to all men)  is the primary concern all member of the Church militant is false pretense. In secondary sense pray, to rise families, to care about the social justice, etc. could be related to the salvation of sould, but only through God, not as primary target.

You always should read every quote in context.


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#57
The context changes nothing:
Quote: and the salvation of souls, which must always be the supreme law in the Church, is to be kept before one’s eyes.

The salvation of souls, which MUST ALWAYS be the SUPREME law in the Church.  How does the context influence the meaning at all?  It doesn't.
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#58
yep you got sucked in big time.
sip sip
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#59
(08-17-2009, 12:16 PM)James02 Wrote: The context changes nothing:
Quote: and the salvation of souls, which must always be the supreme law in the Church, is to be kept before one’s eyes.

The salvation of souls, which MUST ALWAYS be the SUPREME law in the Church.  How does the context influence the meaning at all?  It doesn't.


Ad absurdum: Does the 'salvation of souls is the supreme law' mean that the mother should leave her child without feeding and go to save souls? The father should not work, to provide for the family, but should go and save souls. The priest should not pray the Holy Office, but should go and save souls?

Seriously Canon 1752 means that before a  pastor of a parish is transferred or kept in place the bishop must ask the question: what serves best the interest of the souls?
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#60
(08-17-2009, 09:36 PM)glgas Wrote:
(08-17-2009, 12:16 PM)James02 Wrote: The context changes nothing:
Quote: and the salvation of souls, which must always be the supreme law in the Church, is to be kept before one’s eyes.

The salvation of souls, which MUST ALWAYS be the SUPREME law in the Church.  How does the context influence the meaning at all?  It doesn't.


Ad absurdum: Does the 'salvation of souls is the supreme law' mean that the mother should leave her child without feeding and go to save souls? The father should not work, to provide for the family, but should go and save souls. The priest should not pray the Holy Office, but should go and save souls?

Seriously Canon 1752 means that before a  pastor of a parish is transferred or kept in place the bishop must ask the question: what serves best the interest of the souls?

I can't believe you have said this. You have reduced it to adsurdity.

A mother and father must take care of their duties of state. This is their sanctification. A priest must take care of the souls in his care. That is his duty of state. The Church's supreme law is the salvation of souls.

The salvation of souls (and our own soul) is the SUPREME law, not the only law.
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