To all forum members: Criticism of priests
#51
LaRoza Wrote:
Slayer Wrote:LaRoza, how do you reconcile with what you said with what Jesus said?:

"15. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 . And if he will not hear thee, join with thee besides, one or two: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17. And if he will not hear them, tell the Church. And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the Publican." (Matthew 18:15-17)

I did not say I took the quotations I posted as dogma, only the point.

I could remove them entirely from the post and still not lose meaning. Those rules do not conflict with what I said.


Miserere Nobis Wrote:"But when Cephas was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." Even St. Paul criticized St. Peter, the first pope!

I think many are missing the point that LaRoza is making (and I sincerely hope I'm not misrepresenting it).  His main point is that our primary response and responsibility is to pray for these misguided, live the authentic faith out in our lives, irregardless of the turmoil going on around us, and to follow the processes provided by the Church ~ rather than engaging in gossip, slander, private interpretation of events, and inciting disrespect for those in Holy Orders.

LaRoza has never suggested one be indifferent to abuses, bad teaching, or heresy.  When those situations arise, one prays, and lives and teaches the truth, and then one may approrpriatley follow the procedures the Church provides.

If one is having issues with a priest in their parish, one prays, and then they can go to the Bishop if they feel called to.  If the Bishop is the problem, one prays, and then they could contact the Papal Nuncio, neighboring Bishops, or the Vatican, if they feel called to.  If the actions of another Bishop causes one concern, one prays (and otherwise, I don't see how what is happening in another diocese is an individual lay persons concern, other than as a matter of prayer).

His most important point, I believe, is that the first and most important response is always prayer (and I would add, proper discernment about the situation that causes concern), and that whatever one says or does should never be perceived as disrespect for those in Holy Orders.


Regarding the text from St. Matthew - it begins with personal interaction, then proceeds to having the Church deal with the issue, which I presume, in the Catholic context, means the hierarchy, and not a bunch of random lay folk.

St. Paul's rebuke of St. Peter is a popular scripture, oft cited, here at the Fisheaters forum, to justify all manner of raking the Church, and certain leaders of it, over the coals (and such private interpretations of scripture seems a very protestant approach, IMHO).  But, again, this text represents two hierarchs dealing with an issue in the Church, according to their calling and station - and I don't see how, from a Catholic context, it can be used to empower a mob response from the laity.

I would suggest the prayer from the St. Gertrude The Great bulletin that I cited in post #26 of this thread.

Prayer for Lapsed Priests
Divine Saviour Jesus Christ, You are the good shepherd who gives His life for His sheep.  Oh, be in a very special way the Good Shepherd of those poor lost priests who are also appointed by You to be leaders of Your people, but who have broken the oath of their holy ordination and have become unfaithful to their exalted calling.

Bestow upon those poorest of the poor the very fullness of that pastoral solicitude with which You so faithfully seek the sheep that are lost!  Touch their hearts with that irresistible ray of grace which emanates from Your all-merciful love!  Enlighten their minds and strengthen their wills, that they may turn away from all sin and error and come back to Your holy altar and to your people. Amen.

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#52
Oki doki, I found it. Here's the greatest hits from Pieta:

p. 17, Prayer to St. Joseph:

"Whoever reads this prayer or hears it or carries it, will never die a sudden death, nor be drowned, nor will poison take effect on them. They will not fall into the hands of the enemy nor be burned in any fire, nor will they be defeated in battle."

p. 18, Prayer for Daily Neglects:

"A poor Clare nun who had just died, appeared to her Abbess, who was praying for her, and said to her, "I went straight to Heaven, for, by means of this prayer, recited every evening, I paid all my debts."

p. 19, regarding a picture of the Blessed Mother that she supposedly assisted a mystic in drawing:

"There is a special blessing given each day to the person who carries it and another blessing given each time one looks at it with love."

p. 27, regarding a letter supposedly written by Our Blessed Lord:

"On the contrary, those people who shall carry a copy of this letter with them shall be free from death by drowning and from sudden death. They shall be free from all contagious diseases and lightning; they shall not die without confession, and shall be free from their enemies and from the hand of wrongful authority, and from all their slanderers and false witnesses.

Women in peril at child-birth will, by keeping this Oration about them, immediately overcome the difficulty. In the houses where this Oration is kept no evil thing will ever happen; and forty days before the death of a person who has this Oration about him or her, the Blessed Virgin will appear to him or her. So said St. Gregorius."


p. 59, Novena to St. Therese (If you say this, the good saint will send you a "freshly plucked rose." :sneaky: Note you have to say it before 11 a.m.)

"St. Theresa, the little flower,
Please pick me a rose from the Heavenly Garden
And send it to me with a message of Love
Ask God to grant me the favor I thee implore
And tell Him I will love Him each day more & more.


(The above prayer, plus 5 Our Father's, 5 Hail Mary's, 5 Glory Be's, must be said on 5 successive days, before 11am. On the 5th day, the 5th set of prayers having been completed, offer one more set, 5 Our Father's, 5 Hail Mary's, 5 Glory Be's.)

TRY IT - IT WORKS!"


And so forth. There are some beautiful prayers in this book, and then you have this nonsense.
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#53
DrBombay Wrote:And so forth. There are some beautiful prayers in this book, and then you have this nonsense.

Yes, they seem dubious at times, but I think they can be explained by:

* Poor translations
* Unverified traditions (not a good thing, but sometimes things like that slip in to otherwise good writing)
* Forgetting that it is not the sacramental itself which is important, but devotion

The Divine Mercy devotion underwent almost identical complaints, as the promises seemed heretical and the promises of the image seemed unlikely, but it was later found that the original text did not mean the same as they thought and it is not the image itself (as Our Lord Himself stated over the sister's displeasure at it not being made the way she saw, as it was the devotion which mattered most).
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#54
DrBombay Wrote:Oki doki, I found it. Here's the greatest hits from Pieta:

p. 17, Prayer to St. Joseph:

"Whoever reads this prayer or hears it or carries it, will never die a sudden death, nor be drowned, nor will poison take effect on them. They will not fall into the hands of the enemy nor be burned in any fire, nor will they be defeated in battle."

p. 18, Prayer for Daily Neglects:

"A poor Clare nun who had just died, appeared to her Abbess, who was praying for her, and said to her, "I went straight to Heaven, for, by means of this prayer, recited every evening, I paid all my debts."

p. 19, regarding a picture of the Blessed Mother that she supposedly assisted a mystic in drawing:

"There is a special blessing given each day to the person who carries it and another blessing given each time one looks at it with love."

p. 27, regarding a letter supposedly written by Our Blessed Lord:

"On the contrary, those people who shall carry a copy of this letter with them shall be free from death by drowning and from sudden death. They shall be free from all contagious diseases and lightning; they shall not die without confession, and shall be free from their enemies and from the hand of wrongful authority, and from all their slanderers and false witnesses.

Women in peril at child-birth will, by keeping this Oration about them, immediately overcome the difficulty. In the houses where this Oration is kept no evil thing will ever happen; and forty days before the death of a person who has this Oration about him or her, the Blessed Virgin will appear to him or her. So said St. Gregorius."


p. 59, Novena to St. Therese (If you say this, the good saint will send you a "freshly plucked rose." :sneaky: Note you have to say it before 11 a.m.)

"St. Theresa, the little flower,
Please pick me a rose from the Heavenly Garden
And send it to me with a message of Love
Ask God to grant me the favor I thee implore
And tell Him I will love Him each day more & more.


(The above prayer, plus 5 Our Father's, 5 Hail Mary's, 5 Glory Be's, must be said on 5 successive days, before 11am. On the 5th day, the 5th set of prayers having been completed, offer one more set, 5 Our Father's, 5 Hail Mary's, 5 Glory Be's.)

TRY IT - IT WORKS!"


And so forth. There are some beautiful prayers in this book, and then you have this nonsense.

We sell the Pieta Prayer book at our store, but I know they are constantly being *updated.* I'm working at the store tomorrow, I'm going to pick one up and see if ours still contains these texts.

- Lisa
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#55
moneil Wrote:I think many are missing the point that LaRoza is making (and I sincerely hope I'm not misrepresenting it).  His main point is that our primary response and responsibility is to pray for these misguided, live the authentic faith out in our lives, irregardless of the turmoil going on around us, and to follow the processes provided by the Church ~ rather than engaging in gossip, slander, private interpretation of events, and inciting disrespect for those in Holy Orders.
100% correct. I removed the original quote, which only inspired me to make this post, as I've planned it for a while, as it was unverifiable and not so easy to interpret.

Quote:His most important point, I believe, is that the first and most important response is always prayer (and I would add, proper discernment about the situation that causes concern), and that whatever one says or does should never be perceived as disrespect for those in Holy Orders.
Yes, if those who made such posts prayed with equal fervor, there would be no problem in the Church. Sadly, it is the Satanically inspired reaction to draw back and break away rather than draw closer and pray harder that is mostly seen.
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#56
LaRoza Wrote:
Telemaque Wrote:
LaRoza Wrote:Lay people should not be correcting priests. I have no right to rebuke some people who have fallen from the faith around me, so what do I do? Green scapular and prayer. That is not only the only thing I can do, it is the best thing I can do.

When priests become publicly infamous like Lehmann and Kasper (and many others), then it is not a matter of not knowing one's place.

Why? History if full of people who rebuked people above them instead of praying and it has all lead to schisms and heresies. Luther say problems in the Church and instead of stopping at fixing them and praying, he elevated himself above the Church and has caused many to go astray.

The Pope will handle those Cardinals, we will pray for the Pope and the cardinals and all priests.

And that is precisely to which I was referring. What was gained by maligning the names of those two people? Could you not speak truth and condemn heresy without judging individuals?
But history is also full of people who rebuked those above them, yet they also continued to pray for them.
Luther, Zwingli, Melancthon, and many other heretics were priests.  There is no reason not to publicly rebuke them, now or when they were alive.  Keep praying for them, yes, but they also need to be rebuked, even by the laity.

There is a very famous episode when one of the patriarchs of Constantinople, many centuries ago, was attacking the Blessed Virgin in his homily.  One of the lay people stood up and denounced him to his face in front of the whole congregation. 

Silence can be a sin of omission.  We need to pray for prudence in this matter, but silence in the face of grave evil is not a Catholic response.
And it isn't always true that "the pope will handle those cardinals."  In fact, in reading the history of the papacy, one thing that stands out is the inaction of many popes in the face of evil that they could have and should have addressed but did not.

Our first duty is to God and the salvation of our souls by the living of our faith.  If anyone attacks those things, no matter who it is, Catholics, no matter what their rank, have a privilege and a duty to respond accordingly.

The fact that Catholic lay persons may rebuke their erring prelates does not mean that they have stopped praying for those prelates.  My observation is that Catholics who are prone to publicly rebuke their prelates are more prone to pray for them than those who keep silent in the face of error.
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#57
DJR Wrote:But history is also full of people who rebuked those above them, yet they also continued to pray for them.Luther, Zwingli, Melancthon, and many other heretics were priests.  There is no reason not to publicly rebuke them, now or when they were alive.  Keep praying for them, yes, but they also need to be rebuked, even by the laity.

There is a very famous episode when one of the patriarchs of Constantinople, many centuries ago, was attacking the Blessed Virgin in his homily.  One of the lay people stood up and denounced him to his face in front of the whole congregation. 

Silence can be a sin of omission.  We need to pray for prudence in this matter, but silence in the face of grave evil is not a Catholic response.

 
I don't think LaRoza was suggesting that we always keep silent. There are circumstances that compel us as Christians to speak out. I am thinking of an incident about ten years ago in our parish where a visiting priest said something unorthodox from the pulpit. Quite a few people in the congregation got up and walked out during his sermon. Many others made their displeasure known, both in letters to the bishop and complaints to the pastor. I don't know whatever happened to the visiting priest as a result, I only know he never "visited" OUR parish again!  Now the proper protocol in real life situations is to talk to the pastor first, then write to the bishop. I can *hear* the eyeballs rolling at the latter, as many of us have received that polite form letter from the bishop's secretary. But that's still the proper procedure, and if enough people make a racket, something will happen. So, yes, it is our duty to speak when abuses happen and, no, we don't have to be doormats.  However.. Coming on the Internet and spreading gossip about priests; judging not just what they do, but judging the intentions of their hearts and the condition of their souls, is a whole different matter. I was guilty of this in a thread over a year ago, and made a public apology. These days I try to be careful and think before I type. LaRoza's exact words were: "We all can condemn liturgical abuses and heresies without criticizing a priest specifically." I think that as far as Internet forums go, this is good advice. Let's be honest. It takes guts to confront a priest to his face, or to address a letter to the bishop with our signature on it. It takes no guts at all to shoot fiery darts across the world wide web behind a mask of anonymity. Yet God is keeping track of all of our names.
- Lisa
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#58
DJR Wrote:
LaRoza Wrote:
Telemaque Wrote:
LaRoza Wrote:Lay people should not be correcting priests. I have no right to rebuke some people who have fallen from the faith around me, so what do I do? Green scapular and prayer. That is not only the only thing I can do, it is the best thing I can do.

When priests become publicly infamous like Lehmann and Kasper (and many others), then it is not a matter of not knowing one's place.

Why? History if full of people who rebuked people above them instead of praying and it has all lead to schisms and heresies. Luther say problems in the Church and instead of stopping at fixing them and praying, he elevated himself above the Church and has caused many to go astray.

The Pope will handle those Cardinals, we will pray for the Pope and the cardinals and all priests.

And that is precisely to which I was referring. What was gained by maligning the names of those two people? Could you not speak truth and condemn heresy without judging individuals?
But history is also full of people who rebuked those above them, yet they also continued to pray for them.
Luther, Zwingli, Melancthon, and many other heretics were priests.  There is no reason not to publicly rebuke them, now or when they were alive.  Keep praying for them, yes, but they also need to be rebuked, even by the laity.

There is a very famous episode when one of the patriarchs of Constantinople, many centuries ago, was attacking the Blessed Virgin in his homily.  One of the lay people stood up and denounced him to his face in front of the whole congregation. 

Silence can be a sin of omission.  We need to pray for prudence in this matter, but silence in the face of grave evil is not a Catholic response.
And it isn't always true that "the pope will handle those cardinals."  In fact, in reading the history of the papacy, one thing that stands out is the inaction of many popes in the face of evil that they could have and should have addressed but did not.

Our first duty is to God and the salvation of our souls by the living of our faith.  If anyone attacks those things, no matter who it is, Catholics, no matter what their rank, have a privilege and a duty to respond accordingly.

The fact that Catholic lay persons may rebuke their erring prelates does not mean that they have stopped praying for those prelates.  My observation is that Catholics who are prone to publicly rebuke their prelates are more prone to pray for them than those who keep silent in the face of error.

DJR, that heretical patriarch you were talking about was the horrid Nestorius, who denied that the Blessed Virgin Mary was the Theotokos, the Mother of God.

And as for the rest of your post, you're on the money. We are the Church Militant, not the Church Milquetoast.
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#59
HailGilbert Wrote:And as for the rest of your post, you're on the money. We are the Church Militant, not the Church Milquetoast.

Sadly, most of the Church Militant is now the Church Dormant.
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#60
DrBombay Wrote:p. 17, Prayer to St. Joseph:

"Whoever reads this prayer or hears it or carries it, will never die a sudden death, nor be drowned, nor will poison take effect on them. They will not fall into the hands of the enemy nor be burned in any fire, nor will they be defeated in battle."
This ancient Prayer to St. Joseph, along with a full statement of the promises, is also included in the small booklet of Catholic Prayers published by TAN. A short publisher's note is appended to the prayer informing one that the promises are reproduced "without comment or guarantee."
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