Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell?
#11
warning Wrote:Did the non-baptized 6 million Holocaust Jews who were killed at the hands of the Nazi's go to hell? Regardless of the figure of 200,000 or 6 million victims of the Holocaust (is it really that important?) did these Jews merit eternal hell? Does this sound better: "Well only 200,000 Jews went to hell, not 6 million."

God alone knows. If some, all, or none of those individuals were in fact saved it was only through the blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross for them. Let's pray for their souls.  
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#12
If they did NOT consent to the Faith and be baptized, no they could not have entered heaven.

But don't just write off 6 million damned. Don't forget we had at least TWO canonized saints in Auschwitz! We should not doubt that they at least brought the opportunity of salvation to these poor people. And of course we have no idea of how many other unknown saints were among the Catholics who died along with thier Jewish brethren, silently converting them.

People here are right. We don't know what happened to them and it's wrong to make general assumptions. At the same time we cannot pretend that dogma does not matter and that people will be saved without the Church.


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#13
didishroom Wrote:If they did NOT consent to the Faith and be baptized, no they could not have entered heaven.

You are putting restrictions on God? There were many children there and not all were informed of the faith and were simple people.

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#14
warning Wrote:
LaRoza Wrote:God gave use the road to follow,

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

That is the commandment to the faithful. It has nothing to do with the subject.

Matthew 20:12-16 Wrote:Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good? So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.

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#15
The unbaptized go to hell. That's Catholic dogma. Those who die without possessing the Catholic Faith go to hell. That's Catholic dogma. Jews (that is, those who practice Judaism) go to hell. That's Catholic dogma. Unless there is sufficient evidence that the Jews who died during the so-called "holocaust" were baptized and converted to Catholicism, then they are presumed to be in hell.
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#16
Inquisitor Wrote:The unbaptized go to hell. That's Catholic dogma. Those who die without possessing the Catholic Faith go to hell. That's Catholic dogma. Jews (that is, those who practice Judaism) go to hell. That's Catholic dogma. Unless there is sufficient evidence that the Jews who died during the so-called "holocaust" were baptized and converted to Catholicism, then they are presumed to be in hell.

The Church does not say who goes to Hell as part of dogma.
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#17
Quote:
You are putting restrictions on God? There were many children there and not all were informed of the faith and were simple people.
Of course not. God is perfectly capable of distributing His grace how He means. I firmly agree that God can save whoever He wants, but that doesn't mean He will. He could turn all elephants purple right now, but I ain't holding my breath.

Well let me put it better. He is not bound by His Sacraments, but He is bound by His word.

He promised us that no one would enter heaven without Baptism. That only those that believe in Him and follow His commandments can have eternal life. The Apostles affirmed this, especially Paul who condemned the notion that being a 'good person' is not enough. The Church has stated this in very explicit terms.

As for the children, I assume they would go to the Limbo of the Infants. They are not punished as they had no sins, but they are also lacking sufficient grace.

As for the other 'poor simple people.' I can only accept the words of Christ and His Church ar face value. Theologians have speculated there are exceptions who can be saved without the necessary requirements but the Church has made no pronoucements affirming such. In fact her infallible statements seem only to contradict such notions. The Fathers of the Church debated this and never had a unanimous agreement. But even they only saw the exceptions for unbaptized catechumens. They all believed only those that held the Faith could hope for heaven. 


Pope Eugene IV: The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; 
 
You said above that God has no restrictions. Well if so, than why do you assume that Nazis and gas chambers are restricting these Jews from salavtion if God really wants them to have it? Why must we assume that there is some loophole that happens after we die? Why do presume that the words of Jesus and His Bride are not good enough?

God is all merciful and all just. He is also all knowing. He knows the hearts of all. If people died outside the Church then I can only assumed that they died guilty of rejecting salvation and that no one is responsible but themselves.

I trust God is all love. I won't entertain the loopholes invented by fallible theologians to help me sleep better at night.
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#18
Quote:The Church does not say who goes to Hell as part of dogma.
You are quite mistaken LaRoza.

 
[*]There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)[*]“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)[*]“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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#19
didishroom Wrote:I trust God is all love. I won't entertain the loopholes invented by fallible theologians to help me sleep better at night.

You should not even entertain the idea of the damnation of others at all. I did not say anything in either direction, as we all should do. Oh, by the way, the Limbo of Infants is not dogma, and there are many opinions on it. There is no loophole. You make it sound like we deserve to go to Heaven.
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#20
Quote:You should not even entertain the idea of the damnation of others at all.
Not specific people, no. Like I said before we cannot point to any particular Jew who went into a camp and didn't come out and say, "Ah ha! He went to hell." The Church tells us that at least two saints were in Auschwitz. St. Thomas Aquinas says God will send a preacher or even an angel to preach the Faith to those whose seek it. How beautiful and providential that so many Catholics suffered with the Jews in close proximitey! Think of the possible converts! I truly believe that this was no accident!

Quote:  
I did not say anything in either direction, as we all should do
You questioned whether I was putting restrictions on God by my affirmation of Church dogmas.


Quote:Oh, by the way, the Limbo of Infants is not dogma, and there are many opinions on it.
The term 'Limbo' was never defined as dogma, but that doesn't mean the Church has not spoken of it infallibly.

[Jansenist] teaching was condemned by Pope Pius VI in 1794:
The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name Limbo of the Children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of fire, just as if by this very fact, that those who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state, free of guilt and punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk: [Condemned as] false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools (Denz. 1526).
 
The Ecumenical Council of Vienne defined that: “All the faithful must confess only one Baptism which regenerates all the baptized, just as there is one God and one faith. We believe that this Sacrament, celebrated in water and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is necessary for children and grown-up people alike for salvation” (Denzinger 482).
 
The Ecumenical Council of Florence declared: “The souls of those who die in actual mortal sin, or only in Original Sin, immediately descend into Hell” (Denz. 693)


In his decree against the Synod of Pistoia in 1794, Pius VI alludes to “that place of the lower regions which the faithful generally designate as the limbo of the children” in which the souls of those dying “with the sole guilt of original sin” go.






Quote:There is no loophole. You make it sound like we deserve to go to Heaven
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How did I imply as such? 
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