Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell?
#21
didishroom Wrote:As for the children, I assume they would go to the Limbo of the Infants. They are not punished as they had no sins, but they are also lacking sufficient grace.

According to Feeneyism they would burn in the lake of fire. They would still have original sin and be damned to Hell. This is why Feeneyism is absurd and was condemned.
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#22
You're stating an absolute lie! You have no idea what you're talking about! Never did Fr. Feeney say such a thing and I challenge you to show were he ever said anything so absurd. Stop this calumny! You accused me of such for implying the man in your avatar was a homosexual, even though there are many who thinks so. And now you deliberately lie and smear a man and attach Jansensist theology to his name! Have you no shame, you hypocrite?! 
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#23
didishroom Wrote:You're stating an absolute lie! You have no idea what you're talking about! Never did Fr. Feeney say such a thing and I challenge you to show were he ever said anything so absurd. Stop this calumny! You accused me of such for implying the man in your avatar was a homosexual, even though there are many who thinks so. And now you deliberately lie and smear a man and attach Jansensist theology to his name! Have you no shame, you hypocrite?! 

That is a bit strong isn't it...

If he got the facts wrong, just give the correct facts and cite them to help him understand. Attacking his person and calling him a hypocrite (or anything else) is not the way to discuss things.
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#24
No it's not because he just made that up. He's discussed this subject with me and others before. He knows what Fr. Feeney's position was, though he disagrees with it. That was a deliberate lie.
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#25
It's very clear:  Unless man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 

But those unbaptized who have lived morally according to the natural law will not be condemned.  Of the 200,000 or six million that died, how many adhered morally to the law?

Romans 9:27 And Isaias crieth out concerning Israel:  If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.

This remnant will will be those at the end of the world when the General Judgment will be held.   It seems only a handful (remnant) will accept Christ and convert.


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#26
warning Wrote:I say yes that 6 million non baptized Jews who died during the holocuast went to hell. No baptism of desire, or baptism of fire, or baptism of gas chamber or what have you.

It doesn't look like there's anything to debate. You have already pronounced judgment on a whole group of people. You ask in your original post if it "sounds better" that only 200,000 Jews went to hell instead of 6 million. Why ask such a question if you believe all Jews go to hell? Or all non-baptized persons go to hell? Let's cut to chase..
 I'm not going to get into the Feeney argument.. I'll only say that we can affirm the Church's teaching on the necessity of baptism without singling out a certain group, judging the condition of their souls, and deciding their eternal fate. Even the Church doesn't do that.  - Lisa
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#27
Actually the Church does single out groups. She has just not singled out an individual person. Which I why I agree with you that it's wrong to say all those Jews went to hell. Sts. Edith Stein and Maxmilian Kolbe suffered with them as did numerous other Catholic clergy. I'm sure many Jews were shown the Faith before their death.


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#28
Quote:The rules specific to this subforum are as follows:

1) Tenets contrary to Catholic doctrine are not to be advanced.

 
Saying anyone went to hell, even Hitler or Stalin, is, IMO, contrary to Catholic doctrine.

The Church only proclaims Saints, not the damned, and it is the Pope who proclaims saints since he has authority to do so.

To say any person or group of person is damned is to usurp the perogative of Christ who is our sole judge.

"didishroom" Wrote:
Quote:The Church does not say who goes to Hell as part of dogma.
You are quite mistaken LaRoza.

 

[*]There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
  • “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
  • “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

  • And you are missing the point.  The Church declares the Faith dogmatically.  However, the Church does not judge souls.  To say "Didi and Quis went to hell" after we die is something the Church does not do and it will not because it teaches, without question, that Christ is our sole judge.

    The judgment of souls is truly just, and we, as humans, cannot be fully just in that capacity.  We cannot see the final effects of someone's sin or virtue.  We cannot know for sure if they have true contrition on their deathbed.  We cannot see into their hearts, and we do not know of any mitigating circumstances such as mental illness, etc.  And, we don't know for sure whether Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood exist in practice or not.

    We just don't know where people end up.  And we can only proceed with moral certitude if they are proclaimed Saints.

    A trad saying "X went to hell" is as bad, if not worse, than the Novus Ordo priests who say "John is now in heaven" at Novus Ordo funeral Masses.  It's the same crime against God.

    So it is one thing to say "Those who are not baptized will go to hell" which is a Church teaching.  It is another thing to say "Person X (or people X) went to hell" which is what is going on here.  In my view, that is contrary to Catholic doctrine, tradition, and Tradition, so I can't allow it on the forum.
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    #29
    Hey, look! Previously locked threads became unlocked when the forum changed. Weird. I don't know if you want to fix it or not.
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    #30
    warning Wrote:Did the non-baptized 6 million Holocaust Jews who were killed at the hands of the Nazi's go to hell? Regardless of the figure of 200,000 or 6 million victims of the Holocaust (is it really that important?) did these Jews merit eternal hell? Does this sound better: "Well only 200,000 Jews went to hell, not 6 million."

    Ask God. None of us (i.e.: human beings) are even remotely competent to answer such questions.
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