Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell?
#41
Do not forget that many Jews who were murdered, were converts to Catholicism. And that Nazis also imprisoned and hated Jesuits. Not for their theological progressivism of course, like now. But for their Catholic stance pro-life.
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#42
Yes, we know of at least two canonized saints at Auschwitz. I'm sure they made many converts or at least gave the opportunity to the them.
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#43
(05-09-2009, 06:43 AM)HMiS Wrote: Do not forget that many Jews who were murdered, were converts to Catholicism. And that Nazis also imprisoned and hated Jesuits. Not for their theological progressivism of course, like now. But for their Catholic stance pro-life.

I'm not trying to plug any books, but there's a professor of Old French here who survived the Warsaw Ghetto and wrote on the topic of the sufferings of such converts. He's an interesting man, and I still see him occasionally at talks, although he's retired from teaching. I'm really not aware of any other books on the subject, and figured you might be interested, since this is a historical period of some significance to us.

http://www.amazon.com/Christians-Warsaw-Ghetto-Epitaph-Unremembered/dp/026802572X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241888747&sr=8-1
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#44
We can't judge any individual soul.  However, we know what the *conditions* for salvation are.  However many Jews who died in the Holocaust went to Heaven, of at least that number we know that they had become Catholics before their particular judgment.  If they weren't baptized, they didn't go to Heaven, *BUT* we *CAN'T SAY IN ANY INDIVIDUAL CASE* that the person *WASN'T* baptized.  Pope Eugenius IV in Cantate Domino says that unconverted Jews as a category go to Hell.  *BUT* we can't say in any individual case that the person was unconverted because we *don't know.*  I don't presume to judge that anyone who died in the Holocaust went to Hell.  But if you're going to deny the Church's dogma on "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" in order to allow for their salvation, that means that you presume to know whether they were converted or unconverted at the time of their particular judgment.  That too is presumption, for you do not and cannot know that.

So, the teachings on "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" are known.
Those who went to Heaven went as Catholics.
Those who weren't Catholics at the time of their particular judgment went to Hell (i.e. they were denied the Beatific Vision; for those who had no personal sin in addition to original sin, it is permitted to believe they enjoyed natural happiness in Limbo).
We have absolutely *NO* way of knowing who was or was not Catholic at the time of their particular judgment.
Ergo, we should not infer that any individual went to Hell. 
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#45
I agree with you 100%. But last time I said this here the thread was locked and the mod singled me out for saying specific people went to hell, even when I repeated three times I can not point to any specific person and say "they went to hell" and all must be left to God. But at the same time we cannot deny dogma.
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#46
Bonifacius is correct.  If a person died as an unbaptized Jew, then he went to hell or purgatory. 

However, we don't know if any individual dies unbaptized or not.  Suppose God stops time, except for the dying Jew, instructs him in the faith, and has him baptized, all in the blink of an eye.  To us, he appears to die unbaptized, when he actually dies a Catholic.

Improbable, though not impossible.  And there are probably other ways the Lord could pull it off.

But, I believe the important message is whether you want to bet on a very improbable miracle to save you, or convert and be baptized.  Or whether we as Catholics want to bet on an improbable miracle to save our Jewish friends, or convert them.
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#47
Only those that die in a state of grace can go to Purgatory.
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#48
Some Jews and Jewish children could have had the baptism of desire. Either implicitly or explicitly. Imagine those children who admired Sr. Edith Stein, when they saw that a Catholic nun was taken with them in full habit, and suffering their fate also. These Jewish kids could have converted or implicitly received the grace of desire for baptism - in accordance to the capacities of their intellect.

While baptism is necessary for salvation, we cannot limit God's mercy and the extraordinary possibilities of His grace. I am not saying all Jews went to heaven though. The Jewish Communists arrested in the Soviet Union and murdered in mass graves by the Nazis, were often criminals themselves, guilty of e.g. perpetrating the Holodomor.

So things are complex. We cannot decide who went to hell and who did not.

Jews are no other persons than the rest of the world. And baptism of desire is de fide. The Catechism of St. Pius X (1910) explicitly allows even implicit baptism of desire, as well as addresses of Pope Pius IX (1846-1878).
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#49
If the children had not yet reached the age of reason they would not have been punished at all. I would assume Limbo for them as the Church has declared baptism to be necessary[i] [/i] for children as well.

As for baptism of desire: it has never been defined in condemnation or affirmation by the Church. It is purely a theological specualtion and should not be presented as if its doctrine. Since it has never been defined by the Church the defintion varies according to person. When the Fathers of the Church and people like St. Thomas Aquinas referred to it, they were only referring to catechumens who were prevented by death from receving the sacraments. The Church has delcared that no one can be saved without Faith and specifically said that Jews will depart into the everlasting fire with the devil and his angels. So a Jew could not receive so-called baptism of desire unless He believed in Jesus.

But let me note that I am NOT saying 6 million Jews went to hell. We can never know if someone died uncoverted or not and its not our place to judge them. I'm sure St. Edith Stein(who blamed the Shoa on her people's faithlessness) and St. Maximilian Kolbe(who called ecumenism an enemy of the Immaculata) made many converts as well as the thousands of other Catholic priests, brothers and sisters who there, suffering with their brethren bringing the Good Knews to them.
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#50
"If a person died as an unbaptized Jew, then he went to hell or purgatory."

James02,

Didishroom has partially pre-empted me, but I'll continue.  First, death is not the question, as people can be raised back to life before being judged.  Lazarus was raised back to life before being judged.  Numerous people have been raised from the dead in order to be baptized in water, then died again and were judged.  The question is about particular judgment.  Anyone who dies as an unbaptized Jew goes to Hell (in which I am including Limbo as a much more pleasant subdivision), but *not* purgatory.  Purgatory consists of the Church Suffering, which means everyone there belongs to the Church & died in the state of grace.  Unbaptized Jews don't belong to the Church and they have original sin, which forecludes grace, plus whatever personal sins they're guilty of. 
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