Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell?
#91
Good points. However it does not guarantee infallibility in those matters. Dogma teaches that for salvation all human beings are bound to submit to the Roman Pontiff. But we also know there are times when we may disobey the pope, all the while still recognizing him as the supreme pontiff. We are commanded to assent and fully submit to the Ordinary Magisterium. Yet we know from history that the Ordinary Magisterium can err even in matters of faith or morals. Pope John taught heresy concerning the beatific vision. The Ordinary Magesterium was inconsistent on the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The Roman Catechism(Catechism of Trent) erred on the issue of ensoulment, saying we did not have a soul till some time after conception and that we were just vegetative matter. This is contradicted by the dogma of the Immaculate Conception which states the Blessed Virgin was free from Original Sin at the "moment" of her conception, not some time after as the Catechism declares. On the issue of abortion the pontiffs, at least since then, have been consistent in declaring that there is a soul at the moment of conception.

But don't take this the wrong way and think I advocating dissension to the Magisterium. We must trust the Church in all things, but men in the Church even popes can make mistakes even on matters of Faith and Morals. Trads, more than anyone, should understand this. The Ordinary Magisterium has at least tolerated if not promoted the theological position that once can be saved in certain circumstances without water baptism. If we look at the Extraordinary Magisterium, no such exceptions are mentioned and the documents only contradict the idea of exceptions to the necessity of Church membership and water baptism.

As a Catholic I am bound to believe EENS: No Salvation Outside the Church. The Church has also declared that membership is made only through water baptism. She also has declared, without contradicting herself, that grace and justification can precede the sacrament of baptism itself without receiving it in actuality. Many of taken this, including saints, to mean that if one died in between receiving justification and the sacrament itself they would merit salvation anyway. This is the most strictest definition of the so-called Baptism of Desire when it is seen as salvific. But again this is speculative. Despite catechisms and saints preaching it the Church ha snever infallibly declared that one can be saved without baptism.

Even theologian Ludwig Ott who believes and teaches BOD wrote in his "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" that The so-called Baptism by blood and Baptism of desire, it is true, replace Sacramental Baptism in so far as the communication of grace is concerned, but do not effect incorporation into the Church , as they do not bestow the sacramental character by which a person becomes attached formally to the Church.”

So, he admits those that receive just the grace of baptism but not the sacrament itself aren't members of the Church. How then can they be saved? If this desire for baptism could replace the sacrament entirely then I would not personally object to it. However if it as he says does not make one a Catholic, then logically it is not enough to save one by itself.

Pope Pius XII affirms Ott on his conclusion:
Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.

This Baptism of Desire theory has many holes in it and it's no wonder why everyone uses it to suit their own personal beliefs and agenda and why it endangers the doctrine of EENS.

So we have Ott saying it doesn't make one a member of the Church but it can still save even though the Church has said EENS. We see Archbishop Lefebvre making similar mistakes:

We are Catholics; we affirm our faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, we affirm our faith in the divinity of the Holy Catholic Church, we think that Jesus Christ is the sole way, the sole truth, and that one cannot be saved outside Our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently outside His Mystical Spouse, the Holy Catholic Church. No doubt, the graces of God are distributed outside the Catholic Church; but those who are saved, even outside the Catholic Church, are saved by the Catholic Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it, even if they are not aware of it…” (From a sermon preached in 1976 at the First Mass of one of his newly ordained priests.)

The Church is necessary; the Church is the one ark of salvation; we must state it. That has always been the adage of theology: ‘Outside the Church there is no Salvation’This does not mean that none among other religions may be saved. But none is saved by his erroneous and false religion. If men are saved in Protestantism, Buddhism or Islam, they are saved by the Catholic Church, by the grace of Our Lord, by the prayers of those in the Church, by the Blood of Our Lord as individuals, perhaps through the practice of their religion, perhaps because of what they understand in their religion, but not by their religion, since none can be saved by error.


So Lefebvre says in the exact same statement "NO Salvation" and then "SOME Salvation." The contradictions are astounding.

But Trads condemn ecumenism because it does not tell people of the necessity of belonging to the Church. But why? The unofficial founder of the Traditionalist Movement says "There IS salvation outside the Church." But how could he say something like that? Because like so many, he was deceived by a theological opinion tolerated and promoted by the Magisterium which has basis in some of the writings of the Father sof the Church, and states that catechumens who had the Faith but were prevented from receiving baptism were assured of salvation(It should also be noted that not all Fathers taught this, St. Gregory Nazianzen explcitly condemned it as seen in my signature below. And Augustine and Amrbose who are most often quoted as proof of this belief, contradicted themselves, at one point saying catechumens are damned and others times they are saved).

But now we see that this BOD has lead even among the self-professed <A HREF="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10415a.htm#III" Target="_blank">Modernist</A>-hunting 'Trads" that people can be saved outside of the Church. And all because of this theological "loophole" called Baptism of Desire.

I also want to make one other thing prefectly clear. I do not believe baptism of desire in the strictest sense is heresy per se. The Church has never defined in either in the negative as heresy or affirmation as de fide. I also acknowledge the toleration of it by many saints and popes. You on the other hand should aslo acknowledge that the Church tolerates those that deny BOD, and has affirmed their status as full members of the Church-impossible if they hold heretical beliefs.

But that being said, I personally reject Baptism of Desire as salvific in place of water baptism. I don't insist others think as I do and have no qualms with people believing in BOD so long as they do not NOT reject EENS.

I just wanted you to see where I'm coming from. I don't mind debate but don't want a fight. I've done too much of that and it all leads to an occassion of sin as charity is soon forgotten. If you reply with counters to my arguments, don't be too suprised if I don't answer for a while or at all. This would not be an acknowledgment of your points. I've just done this alot and sometimes it gets tiring. But I noticed I've never debated this with you before so I thought I would let you know where I stand and why. If you have questions I would be more than glad to answer.


Here are a few relevant quotes to this discussion that might be of interest.





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Messages In This Thread
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:34 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by SCG - 02-12-2009, 08:38 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 08:39 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:40 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:46 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Anastasia - 02-12-2009, 09:06 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Credo - 02-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:00 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:02 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:11 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:21 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:39 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by SCG - 02-12-2009, 11:03 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 11:20 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Credo - 05-03-2009, 06:57 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by JPM - 05-03-2009, 11:10 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Benno - 05-04-2009, 03:59 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Walty - 05-07-2009, 03:39 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by HMiS - 05-09-2009, 06:43 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by HMiS - 05-11-2009, 09:05 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-13-2009, 06:56 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-13-2009, 07:09 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-14-2009, 12:52 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by didishroom - 05-17-2009, 12:22 PM



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