Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell?
(05-17-2009, 12:22 PM)didishroom Wrote: Good points. However it does not guarantee infallibility in those matters. Dogma teaches that for salvation all human beings are bound to submit to the Roman Pontiff. But we also know there are times when we may disobey the pope, all the while still recognizing him as the supreme pontiff. We are commanded to assent and fully submit to the Ordinary Magisterium. Yet we know from history that the Ordinary Magisterium can err even in matters of faith or morals.

That's absolutely wrong.  For example, in this letter Cdl. Ratzinger refers to the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_df95lt.htm

"Cdl. R" Wrote:In fact, as the Reply explains, the definitive nature of this assent derives from the truth of the doctrine itself, since, founded on the written Word of God, and constantly held and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary universal Magisterium (cf. Lumen Gentium, 25).

Quote:Pope John taught heresy concerning the beatific vision.

Cite it.

Quote:The Ordinary Magesterium was inconsistent on the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

No, it was not.  Theologians were inconsistent, and they do not partake of the Ordinary Magisterium but are witnesses to it.  The Ordinary Magisterium is reserved to the Pope and the Bishops.  It's what they teach, not what the theologians teach that is the criteria for infallibility.

Quote: The Roman Catechism(Catechism of Trent) erred on the issue of ensoulment, saying we did not have a soul till some time after conception and that we were just vegetative matter. This is contradicted by the dogma of the Immaculate Conception which states the Blessed Virgin was free from Original Sin at the "moment" of her conception, not some time after as the Catechism declares. On the issue of abortion the pontiffs, at least since then, have been consistent in declaring that there is a soul at the moment of conception.

Let's see what the Roman Catechism says exactly:

Quote:But what surpasses the order of nature and human comprehension is, that as soon as the Blessed Virgin assented to the announcement of the Angel in these words, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done unto me according to thy word, the most sacred body of Christ was immediately formed, and to it was united a rational soul enjoying the use of reason; and thus in the same instant of time He was perfect God and perfect man. That this was the astonishing and admirable work of the Holy Ghost cannot be doubted; for according to the order of nature the rational soul is united to the body only after a certain lapse of time.

It does not say were were just vegetative matter.  In fact, not even St. Thomas or St. Augustine said that; neither did Aristotle on whose philosophy St. Thomas' comments are based.  What they say is the rational soul is united after a certain lapse of time (it could be 1ms for all we know).  The animal soul is there immediately.  And you will note the reason given for this: "according to the order of nature" - it is not a teaching of morals and dogma that the rational soul is not united to the body immediately - it is offered on the basis of philosophical supposition, however, it is a teaching of morals and dogma that Christ's rational soul was there immediately.

Further, you will see that the Ordinary Magisterium in current times has not taught definitively that the rational soul is joined to the body at the moment of conception.

From Donum Vitae:

Quote:Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of the first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable

So even if you don't believe me, you have the words of the Church stating that the time of the binding of the rational soul - to anyone except Christ - has not been given by the Magisterium, and the contention in the Roman Catechism that you cite is of a philosophical nature, not one of faith and morals except in the case of Christ.
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Messages In This Thread
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:34 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by SCG - 02-12-2009, 08:38 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 08:39 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:40 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:46 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Anastasia - 02-12-2009, 09:06 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Credo - 02-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:00 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:02 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:11 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:21 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:39 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by SCG - 02-12-2009, 11:03 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 11:20 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Credo - 05-03-2009, 06:57 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by JPM - 05-03-2009, 11:10 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Benno - 05-04-2009, 03:59 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Walty - 05-07-2009, 03:39 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by HMiS - 05-09-2009, 06:43 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by HMiS - 05-11-2009, 09:05 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-13-2009, 06:56 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-13-2009, 07:09 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-14-2009, 12:52 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 05-17-2009, 04:51 PM



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