Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell?
Quote:That's absolutely wrong.  For example, in this letter Cdl. Ratzinger refers to the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_df95lt.htm

Quote from: Cdl. R
In fact, as the Reply explains, the definitive nature of this assent derives from the truth of the doctrine itself, since, founded on the written Word of God, and constantly held and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary universal Magisterium (cf. Lumen Gentium, 25).


As usual I probably phrased it wrong. The Ordinary Magisterium makes up of the worlds' bishops assembled in general council or scattered throughout the world. For a doctrine to be considered infallible it must be "universal".

Vatican I never said how the Ordinary Magisterium could be infallible like it did with the pope and ex cathedra, but Vatican II did:

Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held. This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith
.

So for it to be infallible the OM(Ordinary Magisterium) must be consistent and universal. They must also let it be known that it must be held. We know that many of the bishops are outright heretics while others including the pope make and publish things concerning faith and morals that are dubious at best. What's part of the Magisterium and what isn't?

If you want here's two good articles on the Magisterium:
http://catholicism.org/the-three-levels-...ching.html
http://catholicism.org/vatican-ii-and-th...ching.html





Quote:No, it was not.  Theologians were inconsistent, and they do not partake of the Ordinary Magisterium but are witnesses to it.  The Ordinary Magisterium is reserved to the Pope and the Bishops.  It's what they teach, not what the theologians teach that is the criteria for infallibility.
Ok sooooooo, if the OM infallibly taught the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception before it was defined by the EM in the person of Bl. Pius IX, than why weren't Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairveaux considered formal heretics?



Quote:It does not say were were just vegetative matter.  In fact, not even St. Thomas or St. Augustine said that; neither did Aristotle on whose philosophy St. Thomas' comments are based.  What they say is the rational soul is united after a certain lapse of time (it could be 1ms for all we know).  The animal soul is there immediately.  And you will note the reason given for this: "according to the order of nature" - it is not a teaching of morals and dogma that the rational soul is not united to the body immediately - it is offered on the basis of philosophical supposition, however, it is a teaching of morals and dogma that Christ's rational soul was there immediately.
So are you saying that the declaration that we have a soul after a period of time is not concerned with faith or morals and thus has no bearing on the infallibility of the Magisterium either way?





Quote:Further, you will see that the Ordinary Magisterium in current times has not taught definitively that the rational soul is joined to the body at the moment of conception.

So even if you don't believe me, you have the words of the Church stating that the time of the binding of the rational soul - to anyone except Christ - has not been given by the Magisterium, and the contention in the Roman Catechism that you cite is of a philosophical nature, not one of faith and morals except in the case of Christ.

"The Blessed Virgin in the first instance of her conception was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin
"-Bl. Pius IX.
So you say ONLY Christ definitely had a soul at conception, but Pius IX says at least Mary as well.



Quote:From Donum Vitae:

Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of the first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable
Ok, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but this doesn't say anything either way. And Pius IX infallibly declares in opposition to the Roman Catechism that at least one other person had a soul at their conception.




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Messages In This Thread
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:34 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by SCG - 02-12-2009, 08:38 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 08:39 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:40 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by warning - 02-12-2009, 08:46 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Anastasia - 02-12-2009, 09:06 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Credo - 02-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:00 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:02 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:11 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:21 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 10:39 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by SCG - 02-12-2009, 11:03 PM
Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Historian - 02-12-2009, 11:20 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Credo - 05-03-2009, 06:57 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by JPM - 05-03-2009, 11:10 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Benno - 05-04-2009, 03:59 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by Walty - 05-07-2009, 03:39 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by HMiS - 05-09-2009, 06:43 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by HMiS - 05-11-2009, 09:05 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-13-2009, 06:56 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-13-2009, 07:09 AM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by ggreg - 05-14-2009, 12:52 PM
Re: Did the Holocaust Jews go to hell? - by didishroom - 05-19-2009, 01:13 AM



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