Vatican buries the hatchet with Charles Darwin
#41
alaric Wrote:The "insult" wasn't against the Church, it was a misrepresentation of a view in a book that the Pope felt slighted in that wasn't  Galileo's intention but was perceived that way in public ridicule. It became a personal issue between the two men who were once Friends, now became antagonists and eventually lead to his having to stand trial for heresy.

The Pope told Galileo the requirements to get his book out, Galileo refused to follow them, even though under the Pope's request his theories and ideas would be free to be expressed. That is clear cut to me.

The Pope sits in the chair of Peter and deserves our respect. If hte Pope told me to do something which was not sinful, I would do it out of obedience. Galileo had no right to do what he did.
Reply
#42
didishroom Wrote:The Church never held a position on Helio/Geo Centirsm.

Galileo was an upitty and disobedient scientist who started using Scripture to back up his claims making him a 'suspect of heresy.' The Inquisition eventually removed even this claim and had him under arrest for disobeying and mocking the pope in one his publications.

The Church still has no position on Helio/Geo Centrism. I think even Augustine said it does not matter how the planets and stars revolve.



Well....the Bible holds the position of Geocentrism, so by default so does the Church.
Genesis 15:12 And when the sun was GOING DOWN... 15:17 ...the sun WENT DOWN... 19:23 The sun was RISEN UPON THE EARTH... 28:11 ...the sun was SET... 32:31 ...the sun ROSE upon him Exodus 22:3 If the sun be RISEN upon him... 22:26 ...the sun goeth DOWN: Leviticus 22:7 And when the sun is DOWN... Numbers 2:3 And on the east side toward the RISING of the sun Deuteronomy 11:30 ...by the way where the sun goeth DOWN 23:11 ...when the sun is DOWN... 24:13 ...when the sun GOETH DOWN... 24:15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go DOWN upon it... Joshua 8:29 ...as soon as the sun was DOWN... 10:13 And the sun STOOD STILL, and the moon stayed...So the sun STOOD STILL in the midst of heaven, and HASTED NOT TO GO DOWN about a whole day. Judges 5:31 ...but let them that love him be as the sun when he GOETH FORTH in his might. 8:13 And Gideon the son of Joash returned from battle before the sun was UP, 9:33 And it shall be, that in the morning, as soon as the sun is UP.. 14:18 And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun WENT DOWN... 19:14 ...the sun went down upon them 2 Samuel 2:24 ...the sun WENT DOWN... 3:35 ...till the sun be DOWN. 23:4 ...when the SUN RISETH... 2 Chronicles 18:34 the time of the sun GOING DOWN he died. Psalms 50:1 ...RISING of the sun unto the GOING DOWN thereof. 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his GOING DOWN. 104:22 The sun ARISETH... 113:3 From the RISING of the sun unto THE GOING DOWN of the same the LORD's name is to be praised. Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun also ARISETH, and the sun GOETH DOWN, and HASTETH to his place where he AROSE. Isaiah 38:8 ...So the sun RETURNED ten degrees,by which degrees it was GONE DOWN. 41:25 from the RISING of the sun 60:20 Thy sun shall no more GO DOWN; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself... Jeremiah 15:9 her sun is GONE DOWN... Daniel 6:14 ...he laboured till the GOING DOWN of the sun to deliver him. Amos 8:9 I will cause the sun TO GO DOWN at noon... Jonah 4:8 And it came to pass, when the sun did ARISE... Micah 3:6 the sun shall GO DOWN over the prophets... Nahum 3:17 ...when the sun ARISETH... Habakkuk 3:11 The sun and moon STOOD STILL in their habitation... Malachi 1:11 For from the RISING of the sun even unto the GOING DOWN of the same 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness ARISE Matthew 5:45 ...he maketh his sun to RISE...




....ALSO, the BIBLE holds the position of a literal six-day Creation with an Intelligent Designer, so by default, so does the Church.  When will the modern hierarchy realize that to promote the aethistic and false theory of evolution is to deny the very foundation of the Faith.  The Church Fathers were unanimous about this, and Vatican Council I infallibly declares that the earth and all things within it, regarding their whole substances, were created by God from nothing.  This is an infallible teaching of Holy Mother Church and cannot be argued or rejected.  It seems that the modern hierarchy has some sort of strange self-hating syndrome going on and besides that an extreme lack of courage.  But, we wouldn't want to offend the new god of science with all of her infallible declarations now would we...

To even remotely believe that man was spawned from monkeys, who in return were spawned from simple marine life, is rejecting the doctrine of Original Sin AND the total innerrancy of Scripture.  Genesis IS history, it IS pure fact.  The Fathers taught unanimously on this subject, therefore it is undeniable truth.

Reply
#43
LaRoza Wrote:
alaric Wrote:The "insult" wasn't against the Church, it was a misrepresentation of a view in a book that the Pope felt slighted in that wasn't  Galileo's intention but was perceived that way in public ridicule. It became a personal issue between the two men who were once Friends, now became antagonists and eventually lead to his having to stand trial for heresy.

The Pope told Galileo the requirements to get his book out, Galileo refused to follow them, even though under the Pope's request his theories and ideas would be free to be expressed. That is clear cut to me.

The Pope sits in the chair of Peter and deserves our respect. If hte Pope told me to do something which was not sinful, I would do it out of obedience. Galileo had no right to do what he did.
The Pope is infallible speaking on Faith and Morals, not science no?

The chair of St Peter absolutely needs to be recognized where it's authority lies therein, but Galileo was on to something so strong that he truly felt could not be ignored. I believe he did what he did because he was compelled to.


Anyway where does a pontiff get off dictating to scientists in their theories anyway, I don't understand the whole scenario, of course it was the 16th century when the Vatican still held sway over secular states, that's why it just seemed political to me. It wasn't about truth, it seemed more political posturing, just like this thing today with Benedict and Williamson, again a Pope really not concerned with truth and all of the sudden becomes an expert in history telling other bishops what to believe on non-ecclesiastical matters.


Things haven't changed in over 400 yrs.
Reply
#44
alaric Wrote:The Pope is infallible speaking on Faith and Morals, not science no?
That is correct. The Pope did not tell what science to follow.

Quote:The chair of St Peter absolutely needs to be recognized where it's authority lies therein, but Galileo was on to something so strong that he truly felt could not be ignored.
No, that is false. Galileo was not onto anything. He already rejected the more true science before this. I do not know if you are familiar with the contents and history of what he wrote. It was not just heliocentrism, but dealt with other things as well.

Quote: I believe he did what he did because he was compelled to.


Anyway where does a pontiff get off dictating to scientists in their theories anyway, I don't understand the whole scenario, of course it was the 16th century when the Vatican still held sway over secular states, that's why it just seemed political to me.
The theory itself was quite contrived (this is recognized even now, because Galileo reached the conclusion first, and was justifying it, rather than using the scientific method) and not the issue.

Here is the precursor to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo#Gal...s_of_tides

Here is the incident in brief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo#Church_controversy

I do believe the Pope may have been exceeding his actual authority with his requests, but he never told him not to write his theories which he was free to do. Galileo's conduct was more out of line in this. Even Cornelius Jansen before he died and his work was published, he said:

Quote:If, however, the Holy See wishes any change, I am an obedient son, and I submit to that Church in which I have lived to my dying hour. This is my last wish.

Quote: It wasn't about truth, it seemed more political posturing, just like this thing today with Benedict and Williamson, again a Pope really not concerned with truth and all of the sudden becomes an expert in history telling other bishops what to believe on non-ecclesiastical matters.


Things haven't changed in over 400 yrs.

Exactly. Obedience is a virtue even if the command is not necessary for salvation, the act nonetheless is a great sign.
Reply
#45
The pope just wanted Galileo to teach Heliocentrism as a theory and not fact. Certainly not unreasonable when you consider Galileo had no proof he was right.


Reply
#46
didishroom Wrote:The pope just wanted Galileo to teach Heliocentrism as a theory and not fact. Certainly not unreasonable when you consider Galileo had no proof he was right.

Right. Also, not unreasonable sincle Kepler said the orbits were elliptical and did not have the same fate as Galileo.
Reply
#47
"Exactly. Obedience is a virtue even if the command is not necessary for salvation, the act nonetheless is a great sign. "-LaRoza


That would only apply to Ecclesiastical or eternal matters or if the Holy Father was speaking dogmatic.

Galileo did not take vows of obedience to holy mother Church.

As far as him proving anything scientifically, like I said, history has proven him correct, after the fact of his hypothesis, which in fact proves just how brilliant the man really was.

On the other hand, Darwin's hypothesis, will probably never be proven correct, at least that we're descended from apes.
Reply
#48
alaric Wrote:That would only apply to Ecclesiastical or eternal matters or if the Holy Father was speaking dogmatic.

Galileo did not take vows of obedience to holy mother Church.
By being a member of the Church, one professes their obedience to Her.

Quote:As far as him proving anything scientifically, like I said, history has proven him correct, after the fact of his hypothesis, which in fact proves just how brilliant the man really was.
I can see you have no studied his statements which caused this problem. He had access to Keplers work but rejected it. History and indeed, Kepler before Galileo even started his work on the subject, has shown Galileo incorrect.

He wasn't brilliant in this matter. He was foolish. He was wrong, did not follow any scientific principles and was arrogant. Kepler applied science for his conclusions and was right (mostly right).

Quote:On the other hand, Darwin's hypothesis, will probably never be proven correct, at least that we're descended from apes.
His hypothesis is a bit more subtle than that, as it is that apes and man descended from the same source, but yes, I do not think it will be "proven" or even partially shown to be true. It exists in the mind first, and the evidence says otherwise. Even if it were the method of creation of man, I do not believe we will find anything of the pre-fallen world as it was destroyed.
Reply
#49
Did you guys know that...

Under no duress, Galileo recanted his belief in Heliocentrism about two years before his death?

Heliocentrism was actually never proven, and today it is just a preferred method of cosmology? If it was believed that the earth was in the center of the universe that would imply that Someone put us in the center

Einstein and Steven Hawking admitted that Geocentrism is a valid theory (though they did not believe in it)?



Reply
#50
Slayer Wrote:Did you guys know that...

Under no duress, Galileo recanted his belief in Heliocentrism about two years before his death?

Heliocentrism was actually never proven, and today it is just a preferred method of cosmology? If it was believed that the earth was in the center of the universe that would imply that Someone put us in the center

Einstein and Steven Hawking admitted that Geocentrism is a valid theory (though they did not believe in it)?

I did not know that about Galileo.

And yes, it was never proven and I personally think Einstein disproved it (after all, the sun is only the "centre" relative to the planets, from our perspective, we are the centre). The sun isn't at the centre, it is a foci of an ellipse.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)