Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell?
#11
The Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is God. I guess if the Bible or Jesus says someone is in hell, he's in hell. Jesus also says: "Judge not, lest ye be judged. For in the manner you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured unto you." (Mt 7:1-2) Does that mean we don't call sin a sin? No, of course not. But we should separate the sin from the sinner and be careful about how we judge individuals. If we accuse Mr. X of being a heretic, or a womanizer, or a thief, or a drunkard, and if we say he's going to hell, we better make sure that we're right.. and that we ourselves have never been guilty of the same sin(s), lest our own words come back to condemn us on Judgment Day. And like I said on that other thread, we can affirm what the Church teaches; call a sin a "sin" without judging motives and deciding eternal fates. We can say that a person who dies in a state of mortal sin will go to hell. But we can't say Mr. X is in hell. We can't see into his soul.. and he could turn it all around on his deathbed and end up standing before God in better spiritual shape than we will. All it takes is one sincere act of contrition to put a soul in heaven we have judged "deserving of hell." It's a fearful thing to play God. - Lisa
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#12
And as for Judas, besides betraying the son of God, he killed himself which is another mortal sin.

The following speaks volumes but yet the Church will not proclaim that Judas is in hell.  But could else could Our Lord have implied regarding his state?

Matthew 26:
24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

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#13
Vincentius Wrote:Matthew 26:
24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

Therefore, if according to God it were better for Judas if he had not been born, we can understand that he's not in Heaven nor in Purgatory.
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#14
Bonifacio Wrote:Judas, Satan and His Angels and everyone on this planet who died in a state of mortal sin.

I think those who die in original sin with venial sin(s) also end up there. Technically dying in original sin and no actual sins at all also leads to Hell--but that particular state is generally called Limbo.
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#15
7HolyCats Wrote:Then what is it? There is no reason to take some of the stories Jesus uses as parables and others as literal history. This was a demonstrative tale. Its purpose was teaching a moral lesson. Why would it be historical?? I see no indication for that. The Gospel today for Sexagesima mentioned a sower too. Are you going to insist that there really was a sower sowing seeds that Jesus was specifically referring to?

Because the people did not stand for anything else (like the "king", the "sower", and the "son" often used in parables) and because it used no analogy.

Why would it be historical? Is this a parable?

Luke 16:20- Wrote:And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

This is a parable:

Matthew 13:3-9 Wrote:And he spoke to them many things in parables, saying: Behold the sower went forth to sow. And whilst he soweth some fell by the way side, and the birds of the air came and ate them up. And other some fell upon stony ground, where they had not much earth: and they sprung up immediately, because they had no deepness of earth. And when the sun was up they were scorched: and because they had not root, they withered away. And others fell among thorns: and the thorns grew up and choked them. And others fell upon good ground: and they brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, and some thirtyfold.

The story of Lazarus had a name, no parable gave the people names, only relationships and roles. The story of Lazarus spoke as if it were an event, of which only God would know. It did not deal with metaphors or anything else and is quite factual.
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#16
I'm glad this came up because I've always wondered about this bit from the Council of Constance:

Quote:
This holy synod, therefore, at the instance of the procurator-fiscal and since a decree was issued to the effect that sentence should be heard on this day, declares, defines and decrees that the said John Wyclif was a notorious and obstinate heretic who died in heresy, and it anathematises him and condemns his memory. It decrees and orders that his body and bones are to be exhumed, if they can be identified among the corpses of the faithful, and to be scattered far from a burial place of the church, in accordance with canonical and lawful sanctions.

I know there was some wackiness at Constance, so I'm not sure if this is considered legit or not.

For what it's worth, I think that Judas's fate is divinely revealed.
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#17
I would like to state that although I did state that the Rich Man and Judas were most likely revealed, it does not matter. It does no good to ponder this question and we should take the narrow path as instructed.
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#18
LaRoza Wrote:I would like to state that although I did state that the Rich Man and Judas were most likely revealed, it does not matter. It does no good to ponder this question and we should take the narrow path as instructed.

I agree..but would like to add that Didi's question is open to legitimate debate: Does the Church say anyone is in hell? He's not asking us to judge the fate of individuals, as was the case with the other thread. If Warning wanted to debate the issue of salvation without baptism, he should have just said so.. instead of setting up "holocaust Jews" like carnival ducks at the end of a loaded gun. 
 
- Lisa
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#19
Quote:Because the people did not stand for anything else (like the "king", the "sower", and the "son" often used in parables) and because it used no analogy.

They stand for the gravely uncharitable man in general vs the suffering he is supposed to alleviate.

New Advent says:
Quote:Christ
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#20
What about the words of Our Lady at Fatima, Caths?

They seem pretty explicit to me.

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