Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell?
#21
Bonifacio Wrote:What about the words of Our Lady at Fatima, Caths?

They seem pretty explicit to me.

Our Lady of Fatima is merely repeating what Our Lord said in the Gospels.

Many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them...Enter the narrow gate, etc.

- Lisa
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#22
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Our Lady of Fatima is merely repeating what Our Lord said in the Gospels.

Many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them...Enter the narrow gate, etc.

Precisely. Thus, there are people who actually go to Hell.
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#23
Bonifacio Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Our Lady of Fatima is merely repeating what Our Lord said in the Gospels.

Many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them...Enter the narrow gate, etc.

Precisely. Thus, there are people who actually go to Hell.

We're not saying there aren't people in hell. We're wondering if "the Church" (ie pope, council, etc) has ever said an individual by name (like Judas, Hitler, etc) was in hell.. On the flip side, a pope does claim certain individuals are in heaven when he canonizes saints.
 
- Lisa
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#24
There is a difference between "the rules" and a particular judgment.

We know that people who die in a state of unrepentant and unforgiven mortal sin go to hell.  That is "the rule".

We don't know, for a fact, who dies that way because it goes to the internal forum.  Say, for example, there is someone who is a notorious thief.  We don't know if they stole as an act of will to the point it was mortal sin.  They may suffer from kleptomania or some illness which would mitigate it.

The beliefs of Fr. Feeny aside for this next statement, we don't know who truly has "invincible ignorance" to the point where following the Natural Law is enough to be allowed into heaven.

What people do and express on the outside is not necessarily what goes on inside, and when it comes to salvation and damnation what goes on inside is what actually matters.

In the case of John Wyclif, looking at what was posted, the Church does not say he went to hell.  It says he died in heresy.  The Church does not presume to know how Christ judged him.  It could be the guy had mental illness.  What the Church does say is: "in accordance with canonical and lawful sanctions."  The Church can sentence him based on the external forum.  That means refuse him a Catholic funeral and burial.  What the Church did not do here is condemn him to hell.  Why?  Because the Church cannot do that.

If we are talking about "the rules" it is fine to say heretics go to hell because that is what the Church teaches.  If we are talking about actual judgment, we have no authority to say anything because judgment belongs to Christ.

Thinking of it in secular terms:

Speeding is illegal and the fine is $500.  We know by the rules that speeders are fined $500.  We see someone speeding.  Can we pull him over and ask him for $500?  No, we cannot.  We have no authority to render a particular judgment.  We also have not given him a trial - maybe he's taking someone to the hospital, maybe he is not aware of the speed limit (which doesn't help in a secular court but it helps in the arena of damnation), etc.

Scripture and Judas, etc., are divine revelation, so that is different.  That is not the Church rendering judgment or defining God's judgment.  That is a record of God's judgment.  It is a known fact rather than a discernment. 

And the Catholic hope should be that all get to heaven even though we know by Scripture and Christ's own words that it will not be so.  We should not anticipate Christ's judgment of people, but hope for His mercy upon others. 

There is a difference between hoping for His mercy and presuming upon His mercy.  The various priests who say "John is in heaven now" are presuming upon His mercy which is sinful.  Praying for the soul of someone, no matter how sinful, is hoping for His mercy.

Likewise, we should not presume upon a lack of mercy.  God is infinitely merciful, and He will surely given anyone the greatest possible chance for salvation.  Sometimes that chance is the eye of a needle and we are the camel, but that chance is still there.  If He would give His only Son to die for us, He would do anything within the bounds of justice to save us, and, if we look at Christ for an example, He would go beyond the bounds of justice because surely it is not just that Christ died on the cross for our miserable and worthless souls.

It's not clear to me why, as Catholics, we would even want to entertain the question of who goes to hell.  We should rejoice in God's justice that the good will be rewarded and the bad punished, for sure, and trust in Him and accept His decisions as to who goes where unquestioningly.  However, we should not delight in the loss of even one soul.  I'm sure God doesn't.  That is a child of His that is being cast out.  No parent likes to lose a child, no matter how bad the child is.

Who can be saved?

25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?  26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.

Anyone can be saved, no matter how bad we are.  God will give us every possible chance to be saved, of that I am sure.  And when it comes to individuals, no matter how bad they are, we don't know what chances Christ offers them, especially at the very moment of death.

What seems impossible to us, an apparently unrepentant sinner being saved, is possible with God by His own means in accordance with His Justice and Mercy.  With God all things are possible.
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#25
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
Bonifacio Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Our Lady of Fatima is merely repeating what Our Lord said in the Gospels.

Many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them...Enter the narrow gate, etc.

Precisely. Thus, there are people who actually go to Hell.

We're not saying there aren't people in hell. We're wondering if "the Church" (ie pope, council, etc) has ever said an individual by name (like Judas, Hitler, etc) was in hell.. On the flip side, a pope does claim certain individuals are in heaven when he canonizes saints.
 
- Lisa

If I were to guess why the Church is allowed, by God, to canonize saints but not "canonize" the damned it would be this:  the Saints are a mechanism that goes to our salvation.  They can intercede for us, and they set examples for us.

Telling us who is damned really doesn't help us.  We don't need "negative examples" to be saved, and the damned cannot intercede for us.  Certainly, it is possible to have a private revelation in the form of a spectre or something to warn us off our path to damnation, but that is different than an example.

Christ came to us to save us, but also to be an example.  God did not send the devil to us to be a "counter-example".  The extension of the metaphor to the canonization of saints and the lack of commentary on the damned seems to extend nicely.  But, this is obviously speculation on my part.
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#26
QuisUtDeus Wrote:Christ came to us to save us, but also to be an example.  God did not send the devil to us to be a "counter-example".  The extension of the metaphor to the canonization of saints and the lack of commentary on the damned seems to extend nicely.  But, this is obviously speculation on my part.

My speculations are in tune with yours.
We don't have a Butler's Lives of the Damned. Thank goodness.
- Lisa


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#27
7HolyCats Wrote:
Quote:Because the people did not stand for anything else (like the "king", the "sower", and the "son" often used in parables) and because it used no analogy.

They stand for the gravely uncharitable man in general vs the suffering he is supposed to alleviate.

New Advent says:
Quote:Christ
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#28
QuisUtDeus Wrote:Scripture and Judas, etc., are divine revelation, so that is different.  That is not the Church rendering judgment or defining God's judgment.  That is a record of God's judgment.  It is a known fact rather than a discernment.

It was not a known fact, nor a record of God's judgment, to JPII:

From Crossing the Threshold of Hope:

Quote:Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, "It would be better for that man if he had never been born"(Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.
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#29
7HolyCats Wrote:
Quote:It is known that a few people went to Hell who chose it, but that was by divine revelation.

Quote:I dont think anyone in Public Revelation.
Quote:Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

Quote:This I think is the most suggestive of all of them, and I personally think Judas is almost certainly in hell. But it is not conclusive. Jesus is speaking here in Gethsemene while Judas was still alive, remember, and though he was surely lost at that point, perhaps He could still have been "found" as it were, in his last moments as he hanged.

I think it can be deduced from Psalm 108 that Judas was condemned to hell.  In Acts, Saint Peter quotes that psalm and applies it to Judas.

Psalm 108:

Quote:6 Set thou the sinner over him: and may the devil stand at his right hand. 7 When he is judged, may he go out condemned; and may his prayer be turned to sin. 8 May his days be few: and his bishopric let another take.

 
Compare with Acts 1:
 
Quote:16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus: 17 Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

 
And see another part of Psalm 108, which relates to Judas:
Quote:16 Because he remembered not to show mercy, 17 But persecuted the poor man and the beggar; and the broken in heart, to put him to death. 18 And he loved cursing, and it shall come unto him: and he would not have blessing, and it shall be far from him. And he put on cursing, like a garment: and it went in like water into his entrails, and like oil in his bones. 19 May it be unto him like a garment which covereth him; and like a girdle with which he is girded continually. 20 This is the work of them who detract me before the Lord; and who speak evils against my soul.
 

The above quote from Psalm 108 is a prediction.  It says cursing shall "come unto him" and blessing "shall be far from him."  That does not sound like Heaven, nor does it state that there is any temporariness about the matter.

In addition, I think it can be deduced from Sacred Scripture that Core and his fellow rebels went to hell.  Aside from the OT references in Numbers, we have the Epistle of Saint Jude, where, in the context of his remarks about Core, the place of punishment Saint Jude speaks about is hell.

See Jude:

Quote:
5 I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, did afterwards destroy them that believed not:
6 And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day. 7 As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire. 8 In like manner these men also defile the flesh, and despise dominion, and blaspheme majesty. 9 When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee. 10 But these men blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted.

 

11 Woe unto them, for they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves, and have perished in the contradiction of Core.


 

I don't think it can be said that Saint Jude is speaking about the mere death of the body there, as the way Core and his fellow rebels died was rather unusual.  I'm pretty sure to "perish in the contradiction of Core" means "to go to hell."  That's the precise context of the passages of Saint Jude's epistle.  He is definitely speaking about hell in that section.

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#30
Quote:What about the words of Our Lady at Fatima, Caths?

They seem pretty explicit to me.

To me too. I certainly believe them, personally.

But that is a private revelation and binding on no one.

Though I personally believe it, yet not with the certainty of faith. I know it could be fake, though I think it's real. Yet the fact that it isnt Public Revelation, nor to be believed with the certainty of faith, or even just could be a hypothetical or didactic warning (like Dives), leaves that sliver of hope.

I personally find that unlikely. I do think it is probable that many people, up to half of mankind perhaps, are going to go to hell. But it is not a dogma, I will not despair absolutely with anyone, and as people have said earlier in the thread...I think this insistence on despairing for men, both in particular cases or even just in general, and trying to get others to do so, is indicative of very strange priorities and even a sort of spiritual perversity. At the very least it is a vain curiosity to try to insist or speculate on who or how many are in hell. We dont know for certain in any case. Not even Judas.

Quote:The above quote from Psalm 108 is a prediction.  It says cursing shall "come unto him" and blessing "shall be far from him."  That does not sound like Heaven, nor does it state that there is any temporariness about the matter.

It doesnt specify any temporariness about the matter, but it doesnt specify any eternity about it either. It is silent on whether that meant in this life or the next, until the end of time, or for eternity.

Connect vague dots from psalm allusions is hardly dogmatic.

Quote:I'm pretty sure to "perish in the contradiction of Core" means "to go to hell."  That's the precise context of the passages of Saint Jude's epistle.  He is definitely speaking about hell in that section.

Not at all. If you look, he says "but these men"...and is talking about people ("woe to them") who are apparently still alive, and this letter is being written as an admonition to them, or at least to people who know them. The things he lists therefore seem to indicate falling into sin, not hell, as I think the hope of the letter, the whole point of the warning, is to get them to repent (using infernal imagery), or to warn the people not to be like them.

Quote:As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Again, Sodom and Gomorrha, like those who revolted against Moses and Aaron...were literally destroyed by fire physically. In this world. In the next, well, "eternal" may be hyperbole. After all, St Jude condemns the "cities" to eternal fire, and I know not what that means necessarily in terms of individual damnation. A city is not a personal being with guilt. However, when cities are spoken of in the Bible, it is often symbolic (city on a hill, etc). Just Sodom for example, remember it says in Revelations: "And their bodies shall lie in the streets of the great city, which is called spiritually, Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord also was crucified." So we'd have to look more into the typological significance of this. Certainly Sodom represents the "City of Sin" or "City of Man" that is opposed to the City of God (in the symbolism Augustine later extrapolated), and that "city" will be cast into hell for eternity. But whether that "city" will contain any individual humans or be merely the abstract concept of sin itself (embodied in the fallen angels)? Well, I think it's likely it will contain many people, but it is not dogmatic.

One case that I think is more likely and which I would be more inclined to accept arguments that it is revealed and which I am surprised no one has brought up...is Antichrist himself.

Of course, he isnt born yet, and we will only be able to identify him with the certainty of faith after the fact (though I'm sure it will be otherwise quite obvious once it starts). But I'd find it hard to imagine how he, given all he stands for, would come to heaven. Unless that is the final triumph of God over Satan; that even Antichrist, like Synagoga in the End Times, will be reconciled at last.
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