Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell?
#51
Tele,

What do I care if we don't really know if any souls are in Hell and even if they are there they can be pulled out by God? If I can believe this and be a Catholic in good standing, can't I just tell Bishop Fellay to, in effect, shove off and stop being such a downer?

This is amazing to me that we really cannot say with any authority that there really is a Hell for human souls? According Cats we really cannot say for sure. JPII said the same thing. This blows  my mind. And if I can't definitively tell my lib friend there are souls in Hell, what else can't I tell him? What else is up for debate?

But yet my lib friend can tell me I'm not allowed to say girl altar boys are sinful, evil, or wrong (even though a previous Pope condemned the practice as evil) because I'd be sinning against Trent. And the previous Pope doesn't help me out because it was just "his opinion" on a "disciplinary matter" that is "subject to change".

So there you go. We are bound by the Church to believe girl altar boys are not evil or sinful in any way and if we do so we are anathema. However we are free to believe there are no souls in Hell and that Hell is not necessarily eternal.

Truly, what  the Hell is the point? (no pun intended)

Cats, you are just a Trad because you think the Mass is prettier and because Tradition is true? 2 + 2 =4 is true. Vatican II interpreted in the light of Tradition is true. You could be a Novus Ordite and appreciate the beauty of TLM and be attracted to the "truth" of the faith. Truly, what is the point? Is it just personal preference?

Reply
#52
What about suicides?  I could be all wrong on this, but I thought they were denied Catholic funeral and burial on consecrated ground because the Church judged them to have died in a state of mortal sin and therefore damned.  (Which never made total sense to me, because many forms of suicide are not instant and leave time for a perfect act of contrition.)  Was I taught something wrong (or anything right) there?

Also, what about the excommunicated?  I watched Becket the other day, and the scene where Becket excommunicates the king's friend made me go, "Whoa."  No ambiguity there; as I recall, he pretty specifically outlined that guy's future.  But that's a movie; I don't know how accurate the language was.  (It did make me realize that Pope Benedict's lifting of the SSPX excommunications was an act of mercy on a spiritual level that the people carping about it aren't even aware of.)

Reply
#53
Mhoram Wrote:What about suicides?  I could be all wrong on this, but I thought they were denied Catholic funeral and burial on consecrated ground because the Church judged them to have died in a state of mortal sin and therefore damned.  (Which never made total sense to me, because many forms of suicide are not instant and leave time for a perfect act of contrition.)  Was I taught something wrong (or anything right) there?
This stance assumed that a person could not repent or amend in the moment before death. Since greater understanding of death was reached and the process of dying, the Church amended its stance because there is no way to tell what happened for that person.

So now a person who commits suicide did something very dangerous and wrong, but we cannot say what happened to them and we should pray for them as much as we can. This does not change the teaching that suicide (by itself) is a mortal sin and that those who die in mortal sins are not saved, but it acknowledges we cannot know if a person died in a mortal sin.

Quote:Also, what about the excommunicated?  I watched Becket the other day, and the scene where Becket excommunicates the king's friend made me go, "Whoa."  No ambiguity there; as I recall, he pretty specifically outlined that guy's future.  But that's a movie; I don't know how accurate the language was.  (It did make me realize that Pope Benedict's lifting of the SSPX excommunications was an act of mercy on a spiritual level that the people carping about it aren't even aware of.)

I'm not sure. I'm sure it is in canon law though. I'll go look it up.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4C.HTM
Reply
#54
LaRoza's explanation about uncertainty about what could have happened in the moments before death is good.

As for excommunication, it doesnt damn anyone who isnt already:
Quote:Consequently, a person unjustly
[-]
  •
Reply
#55
7HolyCats Wrote:Again, if you can hope for any specific soul, you can hope for every. Non-heresies dont add up into heresies.

Revelations is discussing hell as a possibility. To do so it has to show hypothetical souls going there. Just like to make a point Jesus showed Lazarus and Dives, even though I think they were probably just characters invented to prove a point.

Well, no, Scripture doesn't discuss possibilities but states spiritual facts.  Otherwise you can say that the triumph of Christ is a "possibility" rather than a "fact".

Quote:But does that mean with the certainty of Faith that any actually will? Not necessarily. I think it is extremely likely, but the imagery is strictly speaking intended to Reveal truths about Hell as a general concept, not any specifics.

OK, I'm willing to hear this.  Please offer your argument as to why this is revealing it as a general concept rather than a specific event.  Now, I of course in disagreeing will rely on the Magisterial interpretation of the events in Apocalypse which we are bound to as Catholics.  But, if you can find an argument that doesn't reject that, it would be interesting.

Quote:To discuss the nature of hell, for example, theologians have to assume souls there. "The souls in hell will experience this" "the souls in hell will experience that"...but really, the point of such assertions is really the hypothetical experiences. Not the actual existence of any such souls. But to show the experiences, you have to posit a hypothetical subject.


OK, but St. John wasn't a "mere" theologian and Apocalypse isn't a theological posit.  It is a book of the Bible and Divine Revelation. 

Let's stick to Apocalypse, though not necessarily that verse.  Because it seems to me the most concrete evidence of whether or not there are souls in hell will have to come from Scripture.

So, if you are willing to formulate an argument as to why in Apocalpyse this is a general concept rather than a specific event, I'd like to hear it (and, obviously, try to refute it if possible).
Reply
#56
The following verses at least affirm the existence of hell and that it is most certainly possible (and unfortunately probable) that certain human individuals will end up there: Mark 9: And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire: 44 Where there worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished Matthew 25:  41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Reply
#57
Quote:Please offer your argument as to why this is revealing it as a general concept rather than a specific event.  Now, I of course in disagreeing will rely on the Magisterial interpretation of the events in Apocalypse which we are bound to as Catholics.  But, if you can find an argument that doesn't reject that, it would be interesting.

Well, for starters the quote of John Paul that Stevus gave, about knowing hell is a terrifying possibility, but not know whether or which humans will be involved in damnation.

Revelations is so cloaked in symbolism anyway, I dont see why we'd insist that it proves some souls will be in hell. Again, knowing that does nothing for our salvation.

In Scripture, sinners are often used (naturally enough) as types for Sin itself. The City of Sin obviously must needs be represented as people to portray its downfall concretely; you cant show an abstract concept being thrown into hell! That wouldnt be very compelling writing.

But whether the final triumph over evil will actually include real individual humans damned...well, it seems highly probable, but not defined dogmatically. John Paul was not speaking heresy when he said that (even though it wasnt ex cathedra).

You havent explained how 100 billion non-heresies (ie, hope for any individual human who will have existed) can add up to a heresy if we admit any given one might be hoped for. "Every" is simply the sum of hope for each "any" one.

Quote:So, if you are willing to formulate an argument as to why in Apocalpyse this is a general concept rather than a specific event, I'd like to hear it (and, obviously, try to refute it if possible).

The Apocalypse, in general, is high symbolic of the conflict between Good and Evil, between Christ and Antichrist, God and godlessness...at all times in history, including the final conflict, but not just exclusively. It speaks of the final fate of Sin, Evil, Death, etc. Whether that fate includes the damnation of any individual human soul...we cannot say.

You say "not necessarily that verse" because I think you must have re-read this: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire," and realized that "whosoever" is very much a hypothetical construction. It sets a condition, it does not say whether anyone meets that condition. IF anyone is not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the pool of fire. I'm totally agreed. But will anyone be? Very probably, but I cant say with the certainty of faith. What I can say with the certainty of faith is that IF someone dies in mortal sin, they will be deprived of the beatific vision, be damned, etc. But whether there ever has been an individual case of that, either specifically or generally...I dont know with the same degree of certainty. "Whosoever" is found definitely will be, but "whosoever" could be no one. Exactly because that is a historical contingent regarding specific cases, not a general truth, and thus beyond the scope of Revelation. And since there are no "anti-canonizations" as you say...well, I can only say it is very very likely.
Reply
#58
(02-16-2009, 01:24 AM)Telemaque Wrote: Bishop Fellay discusses lack of teaching on Hell:

Thanks. That's a great sermon, and one that is very necessary to be held indeed! Please give us the link, so I can recommend it to my friends. Thanks. Or send it to me per mail .

Its simply idiotic to deny hell! And it's in fact saying Jesus is a liar, for it was Jesus who revealed us hell. This must be a fest for hell, who of course doesn't want to be believed in - doesn't want to be recognized.

Yes, one THEOLOGIAN even went as far as answering to my provocative question:
"do you think then Jesus told us fairy tales (about hell) ?"
Yes, in this case He did!
Its is shocking to hear such thing of a Catholic  >:(

Jesus word has to be taken serious and as the absolute truth!!!

No, the church OF COURSE does not say this or that person is in hell, for Jesus forbid us to judge.
But as Jesus told us that people who do this or that he explained (e.g. in Mat 18,6 and very many others) go to hell, we might be sure that very many are in hell!

This by the way fits neatly in the thread
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5210819a1ce2c6d27cb33bcdff3b3e6c&topic=3421605.30
Why do we believe in God - an answer
Reply
#59
Oh - I found it - it's here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWdaw1B6n14&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcatholicforum.fisheaters.com%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C3303400.45.html%3FPHPSESSID%3D0a0d8b09f82f56ab00fa7f27a8ef2a43&feature=player_embedded
thanks again
Reply
#60
Has anyone brought up the Collect from the Holy Thursday evening Mass which also is found in the Liturgy of Good Friday?

"O God, from Whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion or Lord Jesus Christ gave to each retribution according to his merits, so having been cleared away our former guilt, He may bewtow on us the grace of His Resurrextion: Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..."

The prayer seems to be contrasting the reward of St. Dismas, which was certainly heaven, and the punishment of Judas, thus implying that Judas was sentenced to the hell of the damned.

Obviously this prayer is not an infallible declaration by the Magisterium that Judas was condemned to hell. However, we must remember that the Church has prayed this prayer for centuries and that this prayer was found in a number of editions of the Missale Romanum, each of which were approved by the Roman Pontiff.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)