God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell?
#21
QuisUtDeus Wrote:OK, this is like 20 questions.

Can you state what exactly was "astonishing" about it?

I do think it would be an astonishing assertation if it were alone, but the logic leading up to it was there, and it was continued on (and if they completed the article using the teachings of the Church, it would be shown to be false)
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#22
Well, we know God is omnipotent. Hell is, in the end, the result of a state of Free Will permantized by death. We know theologians say God could theoretically force someone's will, too. Does He ever? It is universally thought not. Especially not AFTER death (if He was going to do it, why not just do it before?)

But the question involves speculation about individual cases and possibilities, and as such is beyond the scope of Revelation (mere possibilities being infinite with an omnipotent God), and thus not necessarily heresy to believe it personally (though what evidence you'd have to suspect this for a particular case, I dont know).

Also, just remember the old story of Pope St Gregory raising the emperor Trajan from the dead to baptize him. In the Middle Ages this was just taken for granted as a case of a soul being miraculous freed from hell (using the ordinary means of salvation even!). Does the legend hold up upon deeper theological scrutiny? Not really. But its wide acceptance by Saints and theologians...shows it is not strictly speaking a heretical thought.
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#23
7HolyCats Wrote:Well, we know God is omnipotent. Hell is, in the end, the result of a state of Free Will permantized by death. But we know God CAN theoretically force someone's will, too. Does He ever? It is not thought so. But that was not positively revealed.

Sometimes God is quite compelling for certain people. St Paul, Jonas and others were given not so subtle hints, but I do not think that means there was a violation of free will, just a strong assertations of God's will.
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#24
StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:I don't know that it shows it to be false but that we can proceed with moral certitude that it does not happen since it is the consensus of theologians.

Since when has the "consensus of theologians" provided us with moral certitude? Please quote the Council that defined this axiom. Only the Magisterium can give us moral certitude on anything, not theologians.

I don't know that a Council defined it.  It is a premise of Catholic theology:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03539b.htm

Quote:It is, then,
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#25
Quote:Sometimes God is quite compelling for certain people. St Paul, Jonas and others were given not so subtle hints, but I do not think that means there was a violation of free will, just a strong assertations of God's will.

I agree. But theologians are unanimous that God could force a will, just that He doesnt ever out of respect for our moral liberty.


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#26
QuisUtDeus Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:OK, so why were you floored?  Is it because you know this to be a heresy and see a false statement, or because you believed it to be a heresy and found the opposite in the CE?

I was floored because of the astonishing nature of the assertion in the CE.

OK, this is like 20 questions.

Can you state what exactly was "astonishing" about it?

The notion that in itself, it is
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#27
I'll say it again: just remember the old story (found in Dante, and the Golden Legend) of Pope St Gregory raising the emperor Trajan from the dead to baptize him. In the Middle Ages this was just taken for granted as a case of a soul being miraculous freed from hell. The story started as Pope Gregory just praying for the release of his soul, and evolved to even a story of resurrecting him from hell and baptizing him! Does the legend hold up upon deeper theological scrutiny? Not really. But its wide acceptance by Saints and theologians...shows it is not strictly speaking a heretical thought.
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#28
LaRoza Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:OK, this is like 20 questions.

Can you state what exactly was "astonishing" about it?

I do think it would be an astonishing assertation if it were alone, but the logic leading up to it was there, and it was continued on (and if they completed the article using the teachings of the Church, it would be shown to be false)

OK, so that's what I asked Stevus.  Can you find an authoritative declaration that it is false?  Or, failing that, can you ascribe the correct theological degree of certainty to the statement by the theologians?

Because if it is sententia communis or below, it belongs to the field of free opinions.

Denziger would state (at the time of printing) what degree of certainty this teaching was held to be at.  If people are claiming it is heretical, I'm just asking for evidence.
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#29
StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:OK, so why were you floored?  Is it because you know this to be a heresy and see a false statement, or because you believed it to be a heresy and found the opposite in the CE?

I was floored because of the astonishing nature of the assertion in the CE.

OK, this is like 20 questions.

Can you state what exactly was "astonishing" about it?

The notion that in itself, it is
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#30
Just kicking it around, I don't know if it's so, but there are many near death experience accounts in which the "dead" person is rescued from demons. Perhaps there's a flip side to the beatific vision, like an "ape" of the beatific vision. Perhaps before this hellish ape of a vision; the vision that seals one's fate, one can still be delivered. Again, I don't know, I'm just speculating here.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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