Hope or Presumption?
#31
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Why bother? Even if Limbo exists now, it won’t after the final resurrection. Everything is passing away. Even heaven and earth shall pass away, (Matthew 24:32) Also, hell shall pass away.

It is for this reason I said earlier my personal belief is that they do share in the Resurrection with the faithful, although they may not be in Heaven like a saint, or they may be. I do not think at any time they are condemned to suffering.
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#32
Vincentius Wrote:Do we need a solemn definition of Limbo to accept this doctrine with a catholic faith? 

I think the Church should solemnly define that there are some things the Church can't solemnly define.. then go on to make a list of what those things are.

- Lisa
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#33
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:I think the Church should solemnly define that there are some things the Church can't solemnly define.. then go on to make a list of what those things are.

- Lisa

I don't think the Church should list them, but they should say people should not argue over them, lest they be like the Pharisees. Perhaps they will be revealed in the future, but only if needed. There is no trivia for God.

Some of the things are:

* The unbaptised children
* Exactly what is the fate of those outside the Church but lead just lives (and are not given the oppurtunity to come into the Church)
* Exactly how Jesus was born

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#34
Peter, I also want to say I think it is quite a stretch to go from this...
PeterII Wrote:The New Catechism (CCC)
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."

 
To this....
 
PeterII Wrote:The issue is extremely important because it is a modernist attempt to undermine traditional teaching with new theology, which leads to the abusive practice of not baptizing infants as soon as reasonably possible, and partially exonerates crimes like abortion

 
... As if "allowing us to hope" leads to "partially exonerating crimes like abortion." Come on.
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#35
ONeill Wrote:
Vincentius Wrote:I don't know what the problem is about unbaptized infants being deprived of the Beatific Vision.
There is no ambiguity or equivocation about God's commandment that without Baptism, you cannot enter heaven.
He told that to people who could understand. The issue of those below the age of reason was never mentioned. There is no dogma concerning this.

Well, of course. But He commanded -- not suggested -- His Apostles to teach all nations all that He has taught and to baptized them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

Quote:
Quote:If unbaptized infants cannot enter heaven and they have not trasgressed serious sins which will condemn them to hell, where then would they go? Do we need a solemn definition of Limbo to accept this doctrine with a catholic faith?

Do we need to argue about it? If unbaptised infants cannot enter heaven (and they may be able to) and they have no sins, why can't they eventually or immediately enter heaven or share in the glory of God?

The foregoing doesn't make sense.

Quote:We can all trust in God no matter what happens to them instead of trying to take advantage of those grieving with big words and complex arguments of personal opinions.

When the Scriptures are cited and quoted, it is no longer personal opinion. Learn about Original Sin first because this is what hinders souls from gaining heaven, and this is the purpose of the Sacrament of Baptism -- to remove Original Sin and transform a man born of the sin of Adam into the adopted sons of God. Original Sin blocks entrance to heaven. That's all there is to it.

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#36
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
Vincentius Wrote:If unbaptized infants cannot enter heaven and they have not trasgressed serious sins which will condemn them to hell, where then would they go? Do we need a solemn definition of Limbo to accept this doctrine with a catholic faith?

Why bother? Even if Limbo exists now, it won’t after the final resurrection. Everything is passing away. Even heaven and earth shall pass away, (Matthew 24:32) Also, hell shall pass away.


How can you say that? Hell will pass away? Where do the Scriptures say this? That was the teaching of Origen, et al., known as Apocatastasis, which stated that at the end of time, Hell will closed and the reprobate will join the righteous in Heaven. God is all-merciful, but He is also all-Just. Where is justice when those who rejected Him are given a ticket to heaven? If this is the case, we don't have to worry about going to hell -- simply endure the punishment a little bit because we're all going to heaven anyway. This teaching of Apocatastasis has been condemned.

Heaven and earth will pass -- you need to understand this passage as material things -- earth as we know it, where we exists, and the heavens -- the sky, the firmament -- will be destroyed, gone. Only Heaven, the abode of the just and righteous, and Hell, the pit where the damn dwell, will remain. Since Limbo is not a part of Heaven, where those who go there enjoy the beatific Vision, therefore it must be a part of Hell, only that these unbaptized innocents will not suffer the pains of the damned.

So if heaven and earth is passing away (obviously Purgatory, too), and if hell will be thrown into the pool of fire, what then shall become of Limbo? This place of natural happiness but no beatific vision ? this place which is neither heaven nor hell…or is perhaps situated somewhere on the outer limits of hell?


Limbo certainly can't be a part of the New Jerusalem, can it? Where every tear shall be wiped away? And certainly there can't be any "natural happiness" in the pool of fire, where the worm dieth not, and the fire is unquenchable,. Can there?

Good luck with that..

- Lisa
[/QUOTE]

We all know that Purgatory is temporal, not permanent. Hell is already the pool of fire. If God will closed Limbo and let every unbaptized soul in, what happens to His commandment that no one can enter Heaven unless he is regenerated in the laver of Baptism? Empty words? Heaven and earth will pass, bnut my words shall not pass. (Matthew 24:35; Luke 21:33; Mark 13:31)


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#37
Vincentius Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:

Why bother? Even if Limbo exists now, it won’t after the final resurrection. Everything is passing away. Even heaven and earth shall pass away, (Matthew 24:32) Also, hell shall pass away.


How can you say that? Hell will pass away? Where do the Scriptures say this? That was the teaching of Origen, et al., known as Apocatastasis, which stated that at the end of time, Hell will closed and the reprobate will join the righteous in Heaven. God is all-merciful, but He is also all-Just. Where is justice when those who rejected Him are given a ticket to heaven? If this is the case, we don't have to worry about going to hell -- simply endure the punishment a little bit because we're all going to heaven anyway. This teaching of Apocatastasis has been condemned.


 

Please stop trying to find a heretic. If you read further, you will see exactly what I mean. Hell will not be done away with, as in = "not exist" - but is thrown into the lake of fire. It will be damnation WITH our resurrected bodies, AFTER the General Judgment.. therefore it will be WORSE than the hell where the soul/intellect goes after the Particular Judgment. Are you happy now? I think YOU need to understand the passage of material things. There will be a NEW Heaven and a NEW Earth. A NEW Creation where God will dwell with man as He did in Paradise.

 

I'm done with this miserable thread. Goodbye. .
 
- Lisa


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#38
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
Vincentius Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:

Why bother? Even if Limbo exists now, it won’t after the final resurrection. Everything is passing away. Even heaven and earth shall pass away, (Matthew 24:32) Also, hell shall pass away.


How can you say that? Hell will pass away? Where do the Scriptures say this? That was the teaching of Origen, et al., known as Apocatastasis, which stated that at the end of time, Hell will closed and the reprobate will join the righteous in Heaven. God is all-merciful, but He is also all-Just. Where is justice when those who rejected Him are given a ticket to heaven? If this is the case, we don't have to worry about going to hell -- simply endure the punishment a little bit because we're all going to heaven anyway. This teaching of Apocatastasis has been condemned.


 

Please stop trying to find a heretic. If you read further, you will see exactly what I mean. Hell will not be done away with, as in = "not exist" - but is thrown into the lake of fire. It will be damnation WITH our resurrected bodies, AFTER the General Judgment.. therefore it will be WORSE than the hell where the soul/intellect goes after the Particular Judgment. Are you happy now? I think YOU need to understand the passage of material things. There will be a NEW Heaven and a NEW Earth. A NEW Creation where God will dwell with man as He did in Paradise.

 

I'm done with this miserable thread. Goodbye. .
 
- Lisa



Initially, your comments did cause a head scratch....chalk up to misunderstanding!
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#39
ONeill Wrote:
Vincentius Wrote:I don't know what the problem is about unbaptized infants being deprived of the Beatific Vision. 
There is no ambiguity or equivocation about God's commandment that without Baptism, you cannot enter heaven.
He told that to people who could understand. The issue of those below the age of reason was never mentioned. There is no dogma concerning this.

Quote:If unbaptized infants cannot enter heaven and they have not trasgressed serious sins which will condemn them to hell, where then would they go?  Do we need a solemn definition of Limbo to accept this doctrine with a catholic faith? 

Do we need to argue about it? If unbaptised infants cannot enter heaven (and they may be able to) and they have no sins, why can't they eventually or immediately enter heaven or share in the glory of God?

We can all trust in God no matter what happens to them instead of trying to take advantage of those grieving with big words and complex arguments of personal opinions.


A lot of debate by Fathers on this-if those with no actual sin, but only original, do they go to Heaven or not? Augustine stated no, Aquinas said yes, others varied too.....Me, would say Original Sin only people go to Limbo, actual sinners to Hell,but just my $0.02........
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#40
I have a question about this; if we can sincerely hope that people with original sin can go to Heaven, then what was the Incarnation for? God died on the Cross to open us the gates of Heaven, isn't that so?

And what about nothing undefiled entering Heaven as Scripture tells us?


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