Hope or Presumption?
#66
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Quote:<FONT face=Arial>1. Because Pope Pius VI, in a formal magisterial decree, denounced the rejection of Limbo as "false, rash, slanderous to Catholic schools";</FONT>
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<FONT face=Arial>Context?</FONT>
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Quote:2. Because the ITC's study on Limbo is neither a papal document, nor a magisterial document, but a modern theological exercise that does not bind the conscience of Catholics in any way;

I thought in the other thread we established that the consensus of theologians binds the conscience?
Quote:3. Because not even the highest Church authority has the power to change, discard or weaken objective Catholic truth;
This begs the question and assumes limbo is objective Catholic Truth.

Quote:4. Because it is an unchangeable article of Faith, taught infallibly by the Second Council of Lyons and the Council of Florence that the souls of those who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision;
But we don't know if unbaptized infants depart this life in the state of original sin because water Baptism is only the normative means to remit it.

Quote:5. Because Pope Sixtus V taught in a 1588 Constitution that victims of abortion, being deprived of Baptism, are "excluded from Beatific Vision," which is one of the reasons Sixtus V denounced abortion as a heinous crime;
context?
Quote:6. Because the teaching of Limbo has been handed down to us by the Church Fathers,

The Church Fathers said a lot of things. Some speculative, some doctrinal.

 
Quote:the denial of its existence has been censured,

When and for what reason?

 
Quote:and its existence is held as theologically certain;

By whom? Not the Pope.

Quote:7. Because to reject Limbo strengthens the implicit denial of Original Sin, a chief error of our age;
No it does not.
Quote:8. Because all conventional textbooks on Catholic Moral Theology, basing themselves on the Council of Florence, teach that parents sin grievously by needlessly delaying Baptism of their newborns, as it endangers the infant's salvation. Father Prummer's <I>Handbook of Moral Theology</I> teaches, "Children of Catholic parents should be baptized at the earliest possible moment. Leo XIII fiercely condemned the postponing of Baptism of children";
Of course they should be baptized as soon as possible because this is the known normative means for salvation, not because it is the absolute means.

Quote:9. Because the theory that babies who die before Baptism attain Heaven was never taken seriously by the Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes of the Church throughout History.

Says who? And even so it is a matter of speculation anyway since the matter is not part of the Deposit of Faith.

Quote:As theologian Fr. Brian Harrison recently noted, the controversy regarding Limbo has never been whether unbaptized babies go to either Limbo or Heaven, but whether or not they suffer any pain of sense in Limbo;

That's because those of his stripe accepted spculative opinion as fact and chose to work within those restrictions.


Quote:10. Because one of the theologians cited in the ITC text is the late Fr. Karl Rahner, a modern theologian known for his dubious teaching on Original Sin;
Who cares? Judge the statement on its own merits. Rahner also believes Christ was God, does this mean that teaching is also suspect?
Quote:11. Because another theologian cited in the ITC document was Fr. Jacques Dupuis, a man whom I heard at a 2003 conference denounce the Council of Florence as a "horrible text," which displays contempt for sacred, infallible doctrine;
You say the same about VCII, John.

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Quote:12. Because St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of theologians, taught that the unbaptized "cannot be saved, for there is only one means of being incorporated with Jesus Christ and of receiving his grace [Baptism], without which there is no salvation among men."
 
Aquinas has been wrong before and submitted his opinions to the judgment of the Church.

Quote:13. Because Limbo cannot be dismissed without doing violence to Catholic doctrine defined at the Council of Trent: That all human beings, with the exception of Christ and the Blessed Mother, are born with Original Sin; and that Baptism is necessary to remit Original Sin, obtain sanctifying grace and thus attain eternal life;
Again a Feeneyite understanding of absolute necessity of water baptism.

Quote:14. Because churchmen can not reform Catholic doctrine for the sake of alleged "new pastoral needs," since human considerations and "signs of the times" have no bearing on whether or not a Catholic doctrine is true;

Irrelevant.

Quote:15. Because nothing can be more unpastoral than to insinuate the consistent teaching of Popes, Saints and Doctors of the Church throughout the centuries may now be discarded. This causes great confusion and bewilderment among the faithful;
They are not being discarded. Your erroneous interpretation is.
Quote:16. Because the novelties and ambiguities in the ITC document on Limbo can never supersede the clear, forthright teaching of the perennial Catholic Magisterium;
They do not.

Quote:17. Because the ITC document neither affirms nor outright denies the existence of Limbo, but bleeds it to death with sentimental and modernist statements unworthy of a sound Catholic text;

Because they can't confirm or deny it because it is and always has been a theory, not a dogma.

Quote:18. Because the Second Council of Nicea formally anathematizes any Catholic who rejects written or unwritten Tradition;
His flawed interpretation is not "Tradition".
Quote:19. Because the First Vatican Council, employing the full weight of infallible authority, commands Catholics to believe the Catholic Faith "in the same sense and in the same meaning," as the Church has held throughout the centuries;
Right, the faith. Not speculative theories.
Quote:20. Because Pope St. Pius X condemned the "evolution of dogma" as a principle error of the Modernist heresy;
Limbo is not a dogma.
Quote:21. Because the First Vatican Council teaches dogmatically that even a Pope has no authority to proclaim a new doctrine, or to change doctrine, but is bound to faithfully transmit what the Church always taught throughout the ages;
Did the Pope even make a statement on the issue as Pope? If not who cares.

Quote:22. Because the revered Carmelite theologian Fr. Joseph de Sainte Marie observed that the Church is now going through "an extraordinarily abnormal period," in which it is "very often the case that the acts of the Holy See demand of us prudence and discernment;"
Vague, general, statement that has little relevance to the issue.
Quote:23. Because I cannot accept any teaching that would have been denounced by Pope Pius XII, Pope Pius XI, Pope Benedict XV, Pope St. Pius X, Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pius IX, and all previous Popes;
Speculation.

Quote:24. Because there are countless Catholic parents throughout the ages who have suffered the misfortune of miscarriages, but were not the least bit tempted to discard the teaching of Limbo, since they knew the souls of these unbaptized babies enjoy a state of natural happiness for eternity.
Mind reading plus a silly argument.


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Messages In This Thread
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 09:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 10:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 11:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:12 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:29 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 11:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:00 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:17 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 12:39 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:04 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:12 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:18 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Telemaque - 02-17-2009, 02:33 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by WhollyRoaminCatholic - 02-17-2009, 10:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 01:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 03:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 05:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:26 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:28 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 07:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 08:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 09:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 10:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 11:20 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:38 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:18 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:42 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:43 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 01:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-18-2009, 01:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 07:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-19-2009, 12:07 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 01:15 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-19-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-20-2009, 04:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 04:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 05:24 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 11:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 12:30 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 12:33 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 05:49 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 06:32 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 02:47 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 06:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 06:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 07:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-23-2009, 07:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:50 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 11:49 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 01:58 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:01 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-24-2009, 05:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:10 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 06:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:39 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 10:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-25-2009, 02:06 AM



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