Hope or Presumption?
#84
Quote:So suppose it wouldnt be heresy to deny Limbo hypothetically if you believed that their destination was the Hell of the Damned instead, I suppose that is not excluded as an interpretation of the word "hell" in the relevant dogmatic statements...but who would want to believe that and why (even if that person also hoped that God stepped in before death for all innocents)?

It's simply a matter of justice, and acknowledging that the Beatific Vision is not a right inherent in our nature, and that by not giving it, God is still perfectly just.  Our irrational emotions are not going to change that. 

The true debate regarding limbo where one was free to have a theological opinion was about the nature of the suffering or lack thereof in this state.  The minority view being that the souls in children's limbo are happier existing than not existing, and the majority view being that the souls in children's limbo are positively and naturally perfectly happy.   

Quote:Even people who take too certain a view of the salvation of the unbaptized are not Pelagianist, but in some ways an opposite. As you say, infants cant DO anything for their own salvation, so it would necessarily come entirely from God's grace and mercy.

I think many modernists have the idea that Original Sin was eliminated from humanity by Christ, and that practically it does not taint our spiritual progress like Pelagians believed. 

That infants can't do anything for their own salvation neither by themselves or by proxy creates the huge problem of predestination. 

When a baby is baptized by water, it has obligations it must fulfill.  The sponsors take the vows for it. Free will is involved by proxy.  The grace works ex opere operato.

However, in hoping that unbaptized infants attain salvation, you are talking about grace working ex opere operantis.  BUT, infants don't have the will to make the good disposition necessary for the grace to work.  If we can hope unbaptized infants attain Heaven, than we are saying that there is hope that everyone is practically immaculately conceived. We're hoping Original Sin does not have an impact on us, which is hoping for heresy.       

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Messages In This Thread
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 09:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 10:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 11:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:12 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:29 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 11:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:00 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:17 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 12:39 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:04 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:12 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:18 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Telemaque - 02-17-2009, 02:33 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by WhollyRoaminCatholic - 02-17-2009, 10:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 01:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 03:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 05:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:26 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:28 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 07:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 08:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 09:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 10:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 11:20 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:38 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:18 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:42 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:43 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 01:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-18-2009, 01:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 07:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-19-2009, 12:07 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 01:15 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-19-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-20-2009, 04:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 04:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 05:24 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 11:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 12:30 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 12:33 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 05:49 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 06:32 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 02:47 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 06:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 06:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 07:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-23-2009, 07:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:50 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 11:49 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 01:58 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:01 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-24-2009, 05:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:10 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 06:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:39 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 10:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-25-2009, 02:06 AM



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