Hope or Presumption?
#85
Quote:It's simply a matter of justice, and acknowledging that the Beatific Vision is not a right inherent in our nature, and that by not giving it, God is still perfectly just.

On this we can agree. God would still be perfectly just not to give it. Limbo, as it were, is the natural default for man without grace.

Recognizing that, however, doesnt require one to deny hope that God, nevertheless, may step in and give grace, out of mercy not justice, to the unbaptized before their death.

I would also point out that God would still be perfectly Just to not give salvation to an unbaptized martyr or catechumen. They have no claim to it in Justice. Desire and Blood give no Title in justice like water baptism.

And yet, I think God does give them salvation almost certainly. But out of mercy, not justice.

Quote:When a baby is baptized by water, it has obligations it must fulfill.  The sponsors take the vows for it. Free will is involved by proxy.  The grace works ex opere operato.

Well, I dont know about "free will involved by proxy" but I know what you mean. The Church certainly provides a forum whereby the child's consent is phrased positively by someone else (though, really, this is simply a manifestation of the assumption that the child is, personally, non-resistant to the grace).

Quote:However, in hoping that unbaptized infants attain salvation, you are talking about grace working ex opere operantis.

No, I'm not. You are. You are the one proposing that some ex opere operantis "means" like desire or blood is needed for the gaining of grace outside the sacrament. I am proposing that sometimes God may give grace, essentially ex opere operato, even without the visible sacrament itself. If God can simply infuse it in the sacrament as long as there was non-resistance, He could just infuse it outside.

Quote:BUT, infants don't have the will to make the good disposition necessary for the grace to work.

Neither do baptized infants. But they can (and are assumed) to non-resist, and the Church supplies the rest, as you say, and we know they recieve grace, ex opere operato. If the Church can supply visibly, God can supply invisibly.

Quote:If we can hope unbaptized infants attain Heaven, than we are saying that there is hope that everyone is practically immaculately conceived. We're hoping Original Sin does not have an impact on us, which is hoping for heresy.

First of all, the only hope discussed here so far is that such grace would be recieved at the moment of death, so that's hardly making everyone into John the Baptist (and certainly not "practically Immaculately Concieved").

But even taking the extreme view where God (perhaps in order to maximize merit?) does invisibly give everyone grace as early as possible...we know that Original Sin still very much does have an effect on us! After all, there is still suffering, death, concupiscence, and personal sin in the world! Even infants (even baptized infants) suffer and die.

We are utterly dependent on God's grace, and any hope of unrevealed salvation...must remember this. Even if God were really giving grace to everyone in the womb invisibly, this was obviously deliberately not revealed and only Baptism was. The exclusive nature of our knowledge of which serves to remind us of the utterly gratuitous nature of grace, which people might come to presume if God publically revealed that He does other things. Which is why I do insist on the hypothetical recognition of Limbo even while hoping that no one is actually allowed to go there.

Not that they are entirely parallel, but for example...would it really matter if the government really didnt send anyone to prison? Would it really matter if the president secretly pardoned them and, out of his own funds, sent them all to some island vacation instead? As long as <i>no one found out</i>, I dont think so. It's the <i>threat</i> of punishment that keeps society orderly. Justice is still achieved as long as no one finds out that the government is sending people to the island instead. At least, in a true understanding of justice. Justice is not about punishing the criminal, that is merely a (deterrent) means to Justice, which is assuring a safe society and, by that, repaying the victim with an effort at "never again". People may hope they'll get pardoned if they commit a crime. I mean...they know it is theoretically possible. But if people <i>found out </i>that they're being pardoned as a matter of course...then crime would become common. Sometimes deliberately withholding information can have a very clear purpose, as "hope" is a LONG way from <b>certainty</b> when it comes to the practical effects on our behavior, especially when we are hoping for what is officially an exception.

Of course, in a Western "substitutional atonement" legal analogy of salvation (not an invalid analogy, but not the whole picture either)...a certain mindset is bound to arise, that interaction with the Christian East could help to balance...
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Messages In This Thread
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 09:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 10:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 11:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:12 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:29 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 11:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:00 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:17 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 12:39 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:04 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:12 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:18 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Telemaque - 02-17-2009, 02:33 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by WhollyRoaminCatholic - 02-17-2009, 10:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 01:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 03:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 05:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:26 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:28 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 07:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 08:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 09:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 10:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 11:20 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:38 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:18 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:42 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:43 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 01:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-18-2009, 01:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 07:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-19-2009, 12:07 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 01:15 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-19-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-20-2009, 04:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 04:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 05:24 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 11:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 12:30 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 12:33 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 05:49 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 06:32 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 02:47 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 06:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 06:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 07:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-23-2009, 07:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:50 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 11:49 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 01:58 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:01 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-24-2009, 05:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:10 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 06:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:39 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 10:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-25-2009, 02:06 AM



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