Hope or Presumption?
#94
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7HolyCats Wrote: </FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT color=#000000>He wouldnt be Just to send someone who hadnt committed a mortal sin to the hell of the damned. Positive punishment is only warranted by a personal sin. However, I know what you mean. Without grace, He would be perfectly Just to not give any of us the Beatific Vision (and thus leave us in the "natural default" state that came to be called Limbo).

But since He is bound to His word, He wouldnt be Just to deprive someone in a state of grace of heaven. He would not be Just if He sent a baptized infant to hell, etc  </FONT>
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<FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I know what you're saying, too. My point is: God is Just no matter what He does. He didn't have to create us. After creating us, He could have left us to a purely natural end, like the animals. After we sinned, He did not have to send a Redeemer. And He would still be JUST. .
 
But.... God so loved the world that He gave His only Son for its redemption (Jn 3:16). It is keeping with God's justice that the wicked are punished and the good are rewarded, we know that. But we are taught that God is also merciful and gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation, and that it is not His Will that anyone perish. Since we know that many die without Baptism (those who lived before Christ, infants who die before or shortly after birth, and all those in faraway pagan lands who never heard the Gospel), can we not say that if God chooses to save them He would still be Just, as well as merciful? </FONT>

<FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">As you said, all we can do is hold God to His Word. We know He is bound by His Word. With that in mind, there are many scripture verses which allow for salvation that do not mention Baptism. Too many to list, but here are a few:</FONT>
<FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#000000 size=2>"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."</FONT>
<FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#000000 size=2>"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. But he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal, and I will raise him up on the last day."</FONT><FONT color=#000000></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#000000 size=2>"Suffer the little children to come unto me, and hinder them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." </FONT><FONT color=#000000></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#000000 size=2>"For their angels always behold the face of my Father in Heaven."</FONT><FONT color=#000000></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#000000 size=2>"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son for its redemption, that whosoever shall believe in Him, shall have eternal life."</FONT><FONT color=#000000></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#000000 size=2>"Call on the name of Jesus, and ye shall be saved."</FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> <FONT face=Arial>"He who acknowledges me before men, so will I acknowledge him before my Father which is in Heaven."</FONT><FONT color=#000000></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT><FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#000000 size=2>"Not all those who say Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. But only those who do the will of my heavenly Father."</FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> <FONT face=Arial>"Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God." </FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> <FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><B>Seeing God</B> sounds like beholding the Beatific Vision to me. So, which "Word" are we going to hold Almighty God up to? All of the above are means of salvation.. and they are all the Word of the Lord. If God cannot contradict Himself (and certainly He can't), then there may also be extraordinary means of entering heaven, outside of the ordinary means, which is Baptism. 
 
- Lisa</FONT>
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Messages In This Thread
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 09:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 10:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-16-2009, 11:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:12 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-16-2009, 11:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-16-2009, 11:29 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-16-2009, 11:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:00 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 12:17 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 12:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 12:39 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:04 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:12 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 02:18 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Telemaque - 02-17-2009, 02:33 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by WhollyRoaminCatholic - 02-17-2009, 10:34 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 01:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 02:07 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 03:48 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 05:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:26 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Belloc - 02-17-2009, 05:28 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 07:14 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 08:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-17-2009, 09:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Historian - 02-17-2009, 10:52 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-17-2009, 10:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-17-2009, 10:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 11:20 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:38 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:18 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:42 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:43 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 01:27 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-18-2009, 01:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 07:38 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-18-2009, 11:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-19-2009, 12:07 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 01:15 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Vincentius - 02-19-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by didishroom - 02-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-19-2009, 05:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-20-2009, 04:55 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 04:54 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 05:24 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-21-2009, 11:35 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 12:30 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 12:33 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by SCG - 02-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-22-2009, 05:49 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-22-2009, 06:32 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 02:47 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 06:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 06:41 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-23-2009, 07:21 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-23-2009, 07:34 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:50 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 11:49 AM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:03 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 01:22 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 01:58 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:01 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by StevusMagnus - 02-24-2009, 05:06 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 05:10 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by Melkite - 02-24-2009, 06:13 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:04 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:11 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by ONeill - 02-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-24-2009, 08:39 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by 7HolyCats - 02-24-2009, 10:00 PM
Hope or Presumption? - by PeterII - 02-25-2009, 02:06 AM



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