Racial "Separatism"
#21
didishroom Wrote:And yet nearly all people, at least in America, marry within their own race, whether they be white, black, oriental etcc. I guess we're all racists then.

It is considered racist to think that interracial marriage should be discouraged.


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#22
Well I can't help but seeing racist tendencies in someone if he is actively trying to discourage interracial marriages, just as much as encouraging interracial marriages.

If you would personally wish to marry within your own race, than that's fine.

But if you're trying to make others think that way, that is, I'm sorry, very suspicious.
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#23
Telemaque Wrote:
didishroom Wrote:And yet nearly all people, at least in America, marry within their own race, whether they be white, black, oriental etcc. I guess we're all racists then.
It is considered racist to think that interracial marriage should be discouraged.

 
Perhaps because it is racist if interracial marriage is being discouraged on the basis of race.
Telemaque Wrote:One has a right to consider the consequences.
 
Sure, but the consequences are for each individual couple and their families to figure out and weigh for themselves. In any case, race itself isn't an issue for the Catholic Church.

Racism, BTW, is against the rules of this forum, so anyone with racist attitudes had best tow the line here.
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#24
didishroom Wrote:Well I can't help but seeing racist tendencies in someone if he is actively trying to discourage interracial marriages

Acknowledging that there are differences among races is not racism.

Quote:just as much as encouraging interracial marriages.

How is it racist to encourage it? Do you think certain people encourage it, and if they do, why?

Quote: If you would personally wish to marry within your own race, than that's fine.

Why is it fine to personally have a preference? If a person has a personal preference, then there should be good reasons for that preference, otherwise you could call it racism. If there are good reasons for an individual to have a preference, there are good reasons for society as a whole to have preference.

Quote:But if you're trying to make others think that way, that is, I'm sorry, very suspicious.

You prove my point exactly - it's considered racist to want the best for your children and grandchildren. You are saying it is racist to think there are legitimate reasons to want one's children to marry into their own race. I have gone out with black and asian girls. But now I realize that marrying within my own race is probably for the best. Now, you can spit at that all you want as racism, but it is just common sense and you're spitting at your ancestors as well, I would think.




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#25
The problem is defining races. The only reason why a "race" exists distinctly because of its characteristics.

These characterists all belong to a pool of genes, and can be mixed and matched randomly. So, for me, I'm not any one race and I doubt you'd find a significant amoung of people with my mix. I'm just as unique as a "pure breed" and if there were many like me, it would be a "pure breed" as well.

Races only exist if there is separation. Mixing is inevitable.
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#26
Telemaque Wrote:The European nobility married among their own kind.

Was this wrong?

I don't think so.

It's natural to want children and grand-children that your ancestors would recognize as being of their stock.

Not entirely true. Spanish nobility in the colonies intermarried with the indigenous peoples.

Furthermore, the different European royal families intermarried across ethnic groups, thus becoming one big mixed group, rather than being distinctly English, Irish, Polish, French, Spanish or German. King George I of England was ridiculed by his people for not even being able to speak English. (Richard the Lionheart actually suffered the same problem, being a Francophone) Many royal couples had the problem of not being able to even talk to one another without translators, not to mention being unable to actually talk to their subjects. And of course, they often married across different Christian sects.

So yes, the European royals were and are "mutts", when it comes to European ethnicities. The Windsors are just as German as they are English (a very pressing concern during the First World War, you can be sure, and which led them to change their household name from Saxe-Coburg Gotha to Windsor in the first place). The Bourbons are just as Spanish as they are French. Juan Carlos I of Spain inherits the title of (legitimist) King of France if Louise-Alphonse dies before giving birth to a son. And this has caused a great deal of resentment from nationalist citizens.

Telemaque Wrote:You prove my point exactly - it's considered racist to want the best for your children and grandchildren. You are saying it is racist to think there are legitimate reasons to want one's children to marry into their own race. I have gone out with black and asian girls. But now I realize that marrying within my own race is probably for the best. Now, you can spit at that all you want as racism, but it is just common sense and you're spitting at your ancestors as well, I would think.

In my case, no. My parents are of different races, so I'm a multiracial person. And on the maternal side, I would not be surprised if I have Dutch ancestors as well as Indonesian ones somewhere down the line. The Dutch and Indonesians sometimes intermarried. So really, there's no one to spit on.
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#27
 

Quote:Acknowledging that there are differences among races is not racism.
I didn't say that. And besides physical color there are no differences between the races. Often the culture associated with the race is confused with the race itself. The races are equal, but the cultures are not, and people get ideas that therefore some races are inferior to others.

 
Quote:How is it racist to encourage it? Do you think certain people encourage it, and if they do, why?
It can be racist to encourage it for the sake of having interracial marriage. It's a kind of reverse racism. People believe interracial marriage will destroy 'racism' and may encourage it to end racism. I think that's a stretch and we shouldn't see marriage as a cure for social ills. Marriage is for the two people invovled, nobody else.


 
Quote:Why is it fine to personally have a preference? If a person has a personal preference, then there should be good reasons for that preference, otherwise you could call it racism. If there are good reasons for an individual to have a preference, there are good reasons for society as a whole to have preference.
I have a preference for short brunettes. Should society make a preference madatory? We going to lock up all the tall blondes now?
If I got married, I doubt it would be someone who wasn't white. Now in of itself, as I already explained, there is nothing wrong with interracial marriage.
The reasons? Most Catholics in this country tend to be white or Hispanic(which I count as 'white'), so the probability of my having a mixed marriage has dropped. Then there is the fact that my home has pretty much zero racial minorites. Then, as a personal thing, I tend not to be attracted physically to women of other races as my own race. This may explain why interracial marriages are so rare.
Now if I met a young Catholic woman and fell in love with her, who was say black or orinetal, I most likely would marry her(if she would have me and it was God's will) regardless of 'preference.' I think I can only speak of 'preference' because I'm not dating anyone. In fact, while we're discussing preference, I would prefer she looked like Catherine Zeta Jones, wanted 10 kids and can cook on que(but let's be realistic)
Sorry for my ranting.But my point is, 'preference' when it is applied to anything is in the long run, superficial.
Can you show me why you think interracial marriage should be discouraged?

 

Quote:You prove my point exactly - it's considered racist to want the best for your children and grandchildren. You are saying it is racist to think there are legitimate reasons to want one's children to marry into their own race. I have gone out with black and asian girls. But now I realize that marrying within my own race is probably for the best. Now, you can spit at that all you want as racism, but it is just common sense and you're spitting at your ancestors as well, I would think.
Whoah! Calm down. You didn't even give reasons up to this point. You just keep saying 'it's best.' Well why?
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#28
VoxClamantis Wrote:
alaric Wrote:
didishroom Wrote:Yes, but that was the Old.

Naturally the races tend to stay separate. Nearly 100% of all people marry their own race.

However I see no problem with different races mixing if that's how they choose.

And don't forget, Moses was married to an Ethiopian, Miriam and Aaron complained and God struck them with leprosy.

Obviously God has no problems with 'mixed-marriages.'
Is that stated in the O.T. anywhere? I would like to see the verse if it is.

Numbers 12:
Quote:1 And Mary and Aaron spoke against Moses, because of his wife the Ethiopian, 2 And they said: Hath the Lord spoken by Moses only? hath he not also spoken to us in like manner? And when the Lord heard this, 3 (For Moses was a man exceeding meek above all men that dwelt upon earth) 4 Immediately he spoke to him, and to Aaron and Mary: Come out you three only to the tabernacle of the covenant. And when they were come out, 5 The Lord came down in a pillar of the cloud, and stood in the entry of the tabernacle calling to Aaron and Mary. And when they were come, 6 He said to them: Hear my words: if there be among you a prophet of the Lord, I will appear to him in a vision, or I will speak to him in a dream. 7 But it is not so with my servant Moses a who is most faithful in all my house: 8 For I speak to him mouth to mouth: and plainly, and not by riddles and figures doth he see the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak ill of my servant Moses? 9 And being angry with them he went away: 10 The cloud also that was over the tabernacle departed: and behold Mary appeared white as snow with a leprosy. And when Aaron had looked on her, and saw her all covered with leprosy, 11 He said to Moses: I beseech thee, my lord, lay not upon us this sin, which we have foolishly committed: 12 Let her not be as one dead, and as an abortive that is cast forth from the mother's womb. Lo, now one half of her flesh is consumed with the leprosy. 13 And Moses cried to the Lord, saying: O God, I beseech thee heal her. 14 And the Lord answered him: If her father had spitten upon her face, ought she not to have been ashamed for seven days at least? Let her be separated seven days without the camp, and after wards she shall be called again. 15 Mary therefore was put out of the camp seven days: and the people moved not from that place until Mary was called again.
Quote:Also didn't Solomon get into trouble through all his "mixed marriages" and his many wives pagan belief systems?
 
There's "mixed marriage" in the sense of religion, and there is "mixed marriage" in the sense of marriage between members of different races. The Church has problems with the former, not the latter.

Quote:The point here is God did practice some sort of separation of certain peoples and cultures in the O.T. at one time. That is a fact in scripture.
 
Our Lord's genealogy includes Gentiles (and whores even).
Seems to me what happened there in Numbers is that the Lord really took offense about Aaron and his wife not recognizing Moses's unique relationship in communicating with God himself on a personal basis, much more than any other man and that is why he ruled the harsh judgment against Mary and not so much that they were berating Moses about marrying outside of their race/ethnicity/culture. I'm not sure what the rules were up until that time with the Hebrews and intermarrying, but the very fact that Moses's own brother and sister-in-law took issue with it shows that it might have been frowned upon culturally at that time.

I understand what the Church's position is on marriage and racial matters but I personally believe the Hebrews in the O.T. very much thought of themselves more of a racial/ethnic sect more than a religious worldview and scripture  puts much emphasis on being painstakingly concise and accurate in their listings of genealogies and rules against intermarriage again with non-Hebrews, not that the same rules apply today, but there seems to be a recognition of the dangers of marrying outside of their own at that time.

Anyway, thanks for pointing out that passage in scripture, I was unaware of that event.


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#29
ok, but that was the Hebrews. They were also paintstakenly specific on dietary rules, and God says don't bother with that. They were very concerned with their race, because it was to their race God made the covenant with. God's new covenant is with all men now. There are no seperations of races that God wishes now.
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#30
didishroom Wrote:If I got married, I doubt it would be someone who wasn't white.

Why?

Quote:Now in of itself, as I already explained, there is nothing wrong with interracial marriage.

Well, I'm certainly not saying there's something intrinsically wrong with it. But I think there are potential problems.

Quote:The reasons? Most Catholics in this country tend to be white or Hispanic(which I count as 'white')

Hispanics are of all races.

Quote: so the probability of my having a mixed marriage has dropped. Then there is the fact that my home has pretty much zero racial minorites.

Why is that? Tell me, do you think people who choose to live in white neighborhoods are motivated primarily by racism?

Quote: Then, as a personal thing, I tend not to be attracted physically to other racists as my own race. This may explain why interracial marriages are so rare.

Yes - it is natural to be attracted to members of one's own race - true. While I certainly find women of other races attractive, that was not the case when I was younger - when I was a kid, the idea of interracial marriage would never even have entered my mind. And that is not because of any racist upbringing. It was just a natural way of thinking.

Quote:Now if I met a young Catholic woman and fell in love with her, who was say black or orinetal, I most likely would marry her(if she would have me and it was God's will) regardless of 'preference.'

Fine.


Quote:I think I can only speak of 'preference' because I'm not dating anyone. In fact, while we're discussing preference, I would prefer she looked like Catherine Zeta Jones, wanted 10 kids and can cook on que(but let's be realistic)
Sorry for my ranting.But my point is, 'preference' when it is applied to anything is in the long run, superficial.

Superficial maybe in a spiritual sense, not in the sense of the practicality of marriage, which requires mutual attraction. Anyway, not all preferences are alike. Some can be generalized.

Quote:Whoah! Calm down. You didn't even give reasons up to this point. You just keep saying 'it's best.' Well why?

You already said you suspected racism. I think it's right to take offense. And I think it's right that I hold back my views for fear of being misinterpreted or falsely maligned.
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