Tradition: What's the Point?
#21
StevusMagnus Wrote:In previous threads, I could get FishEaters to agree on only a few things that were essential to being a Traditional Catholic.

1.) Read VCII in continuity with Traditional teachings on ecumenism and religious liberty.

2.) Have a preference for TLM over the NO.

If this is it, could not any NeoCath call himself a Traditional Catholic? In which  case, what is really the point? If these are the only two qualifiers, couldn't a Charismatic Catholic and Traditional Catholic differ only in their Mass preferences? And if it's just personal preference, that's fine, but then why really be such a vehement "Trad"? If people can get just as much grace and be orthodox going to the Novus Ordo and they are comfortable doing so, why try to "bring them over" to Tradition? In that case it would be like we are trying to convert fellow Catholics to our personal tastes. What's the point? Thanks.

Well, this will surely be an unpopular reply to some here, but here goes.

After about three years or so of visiting Catholic forums, what is confusing to me, is how some who style themselves as trads, poo poo luigi's threads. It would seem to me that those who defend Catholicism... True Catholicism, what I've recently come to call Tridentine Catholicism, would see luigi's blog and work in assembling these wonderful Catholic teachings one of the best resources on the web.

One person here went as far as saying luigi is trying to start his own religion.

I've come to the conclusion that these folks are either "cafeteria trads", or to be blunt, lukewarm Catholics. No different than the liberals, neo cons, or whatever derogatory label they throw about.

Can one go overboard and slip into an overly scrupulous view of Catholicism in embracing these sermons and teaching luigi has assembled ? Yes, of course. But some of the replies, slurs, and badgering from some is sickening. The worst of which is the posting of the photo of the klansman robe. That was sick.

One thing for sure, imho, is that luigi's posts have revealed a whole lot about what some of us hold in our hearts.

I was confused when I returned to the Church, and started lurking on these forums, not just FE, but others as well. And even though I feel I finally know what all the fuss is about, I'm more confused now than ever in being able to identify a true trad.

Though I have Faith he will never win, Satan does have his say in almost every thread where debate is present. On ANY of these forums.

Thanks to all who weathered my little rant. Fire away if you feel the urge.

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#22
StevusMagnus Wrote:Am I losing my mind?

Can't answer that, but I believe I suely will if I keep lurking on these forums. (not just FE)
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#23
Whitey Wrote:True Catholicism, what I've recently come to call Tridentine Catholicism, would see luigi's blog and work in assembling these wonderful Catholic teachings one of the best resources on the web.

One person here went as far as saying luigi is trying to start his own religion.

Can one go overboard and slip into an overly scrupulous view of Catholicism in embracing these sermons and teaching luigi has assembled ?

One thing for sure, imho, is that luigi's posts have revealed a whole lot about what some of us hold in our hearts.

luigi is not in the Catholic Church you know.

The KKK robe was probably just a joke because it covers the face (luigi seems to have tried to find traditional clothing for men which covers the face, but there are none in the Church)
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#24
Misapplied reductionism often results in confusion. 
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#25
ONeill Wrote:
Whitey Wrote:True Catholicism, what I've recently come to call Tridentine Catholicism, would see luigi's blog and work in assembling these wonderful Catholic teachings one of the best resources on the web.

One person here went as far as saying luigi is trying to start his own religion.

Can one go overboard and slip into an overly scrupulous view of Catholicism in embracing these sermons and teaching luigi has assembled ?

One thing for sure, imho, is that luigi's posts have revealed a whole lot about what some of us hold in our hearts.

luigi is not in the Catholic Church you know.

The KKK robe was probably just a joke because it covers the face (luigi seems to have tried to find traditional clothing for men which covers the face, but there are none in the Church)

Yes, I've seen his profile. I'm not a sede, and will never set foot in one of their chapels. But I tell you what, I respect them very much because of their level of devotion to the Faith. No group knows the Fath better than they. I just wish they would understand that if the Pope they are waiting for would attempt to do what they would do if they were Pope, he would probably be murdered. (I'm probably breaking forum rules, so I'll stop there)

As far as the klansman garb thing, I think it was sick, childish, and just the type of insult some anti-Catholic bigot would pull. Kind of like what some teen age street punk would do to impress his friends at someone else's expense.

The last thing I'd expect a Catholic to do to a Christian, sede or not. Sorry, that's how I feel about it.
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#26
frerejacques Wrote:Misapplied reductionism often results in confusion. 

Noted.
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#27
Whitey Wrote:Yes, I've seen his profile. I'm not a sede, and will never set foot in one of their chapels. But I tell you what, I respect them very much because of their level of devotion to the Faith. No group knows the Fath better than they. I just wish they would understand that if the Pope they are waiting for would attempt to do what they would do if they were Pope, he would probably be murdered. (I'm probably breaking forum rules, so I'll stop there)

There is more to it than that.

It is a form of protestantism. Luther was quite orthodox at first, but now the Lutherans allow gay couples to be priests! Anyone who breaks away from the Church will change with time (look at the "Old Catholic Church") and they do not have the promises of Christ and the protection of the Holy Spirit.

They eventually make their own dogma as well, instead of sticking to what was revealed at the time of their separation.
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#28
ONeill Wrote:
Whitey Wrote:Yes, I've seen his profile. I'm not a sede, and will never set foot in one of their chapels. But I tell you what, I respect them very much because of their level of devotion to the Faith. No group knows the Fath better than they. I just wish they would understand that if the Pope they are waiting for would attempt to do what they would do if they were Pope, he would probably be murdered. (I'm probably breaking forum rules, so I'll stop there)

There is more to it than that.

It is a form of protestantism. Luther was quite orthodox at first, but now the Lutherans allow gay couples to be priests! Anyone who breaks away from the Church will change with time (look at the "Old Catholic Church") and they do not have the promises of Christ and the protection of the Holy Spirit.

They eventually make their own dogma as well, instead of sticking to what was revealed at the time of their separation.

Well, I'd like to discuss it. And sincerly discuss, not argue about it, but we simply can't do it here. The rules is the rules.
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#29
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:You can have sound doctrine with the NO Mass.

Well then, I guess it all boils down to Latin.

- Lisa

No it doesn't because the Novus Ordo can (and should) be said in Latin.
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#30
StevusMagnus Wrote:
Jacafamala Wrote:If you're a traditional Catholic, then you really want sound Catholic doctrine. Solid as the ground we stand on, you know? It's not about a certain style of dress per se. It's not about the arbitrary or cliche or peripheral preferences. The point is that a trad wants sound doctrine, because they know that the Faith is Truth and they prefer for people to not go to hell. Leastwise, that's how I see it.

You can have sound doctrine with the NO Mass.

If you believe that, you really have lost your mind and fallen prey to Aviano's Neo-Catholic talking points.

The Novus Ordo Mass has, objectively, as a goal ecumenism, and most trads would argue it is false ecumenism.  It is inherently broken because it is a Protestantized form of the Mass and cannot be called "sound" by any stretch of the imagination.  Valid, yes.  Sound, no.

It is not based on "sound doctrine" but the machinations of Abp. Bugnini, a probable Freemason, some Protestant "observers", and probably a few things that crawled out from under rocks.

If you are a Neo-Catholic Papoloter, then you will believe the promulgation of the Novus Ordo is infallible, the discipline of the liturgy is infallible, and a whole other bunch of nonsense arguments that misapply infallibility.  And you'll also believe this is somehow "tradition".

There is nothing stopping a Pope and the bishops from making a bad decision on liturgies.  There is nothing stopping a bad change to the discipline of the liturgy.  Decisions about the liturgy are not infallible.  We know this from B16 himself when he called the Novus Ordo Missae banal and a fabrication.

So if you think there is no difference between the Novus Ordo Missae and the Tridentine Mass, then, yes, you have gone crazy.


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