no confession on ash wenesday?
#51
StevusMagnus Wrote:Right. The Church doesn't have to kiss our asses by providing "Ash Wednesday" Catholics with 4 ash distribution services. Instead they should allow these Catholics the opportunity to get straight with God and come home and repent on Ash Wednesday through the sacrament of Penance. They need to get priorities straight. The apostates need confession before they need ashes.

That's not even traditional, Stevus. ASH Wednesday is about ASHES. One can go to Mass daily or to confession weekly or anytime by appt. One can "get straight" with God any time. We are ALL called to make straight the crooked paths - NOW - whether apostate or daily Mass goer.
But ashes are only distributed one day of the year - and the age-old custom of having so many Masses comes from the desire of the laity - not from the hierarchy. The symbolism of ashes is very powerful for people, and often leads to repentance or a deeper conversion. 

- Lisa
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#52
Here it's mostly 15-30 minutes on Saturday evenings

I have found a few Wednesday evening times, and have found 2 churches downtown that both offer confession 11:30-noon followed by a noon Mass Monday through Saturday.

other than that - not much



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#53
QuisUtDeus Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:A failure to prepare on our part does not constitute an emergency on the priest's part.  Catholics should be "busy" in the confessional all year long.
Catholics should be "busy" at mass all year long as well.

Your statement, while true, does not detract from my point.  Ash Wednesday is not a holy day of obligation, but it is an important day in the liturgical calendar that is not celebrated any other day of the year. 
True, it doesn't just detract from your point. It seems to gut your point entirely. Your point in this snippet was that there is no need to offer confession on Ash Wednesday because Catholic should be going to confession all year. The same is true for Mass. Thus your point is nullified.

Your additional point that Ash Wednesday is a one time feast every year and is important, does nothing to rehabilitate it. The beginning of the penitential season of Lent occurs but once a year and it is just as important for Catholics to be properly disposed for Lent through confession as it is to receive a sacramental on a day that is not obligatory. Some would argue even moreso.

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Quote:If they were, limited confession on Ash Wednesday wouldn't be a bigdeal.  Instead everyone who still hasn't fully apostasized goes "Oh crap, it's Lent" and tries to jam in there because they neglect going on a regular basis.

Speculation. "Limited"? Try none. What better way to start off the prime penitential season of Lent than with confession? I'm simply saying HAVE confessions. Offer them instead of 2 extra Masses on a day that is not obligatory to attend Mass. You are setting up the false proposition that it is either or.

None?  Are you being absolute in that statement?  Want to wager that there were Confessions available in Catholic churches on that day?

By "none" I'm saying a lot of parishes offered zero (no) confessions on Ash Wednesday.

Quote:I didn't set up a false proposition that it is "either or".  I said limited Confessions and Ash Wednesday services.

And I'm saying it it doesn't have to be "limited confessions" or "no confessions". That's the false proposition. Those are not the only two choices. A priest can easily offer an hour of confessions on Ash Wednesday (just like Saturday) if he only eliminates perhaps the FOURTH Ash Wednesday mass at his parish. And in some cases there were "liturgy of the word services" and not masses. Perhaps this is because of the limit on the # of masses a priest can say per day? I'm not sure. Regardless, my point is, that it is going overboard. Surely confession to kick off Lent outweighs the 4th ash service.


Quote:However, you did make an "either or" proposition that is false.  Do you even read the arguments you make?

Quote:Priests should be "busy" in the confessional to kick off the penitential season of Lent. Not off distributing ashes 4 times that day and cancelling confessions.

You say: They should be in the confessional and NOT off distributing ashes and cancelling confessions.  Apparently in your mind they can't do both.

So you're suggesting a priest can distribute ashes AND hear confessions at the same time? I suppose the priest could carry the ashes into the confessional and apply them after absolution if it were face to face. Otherwise I suppose he could pass the ashes around the screen and you could self-apply them.

But seriously, my whole point is that YES instead of distributing ashes for the FOURTH time that day the priest can hear confessions during that time instead. This is not a false "either or" proposition at all. The priest could certainly distribute ashes even 2-3 times and still hear confessions.

I think it might be someone else who needs to "read" the arguments I make.

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Quote:Usually, there is plenty of opportunity for Confession during Lent. 

There's plenty of opportunity for Mass during Lent as well.

Irrelevant, plus Ash Wednesday services only happen on Ash Wednesday.  Confession can happen any day.

A Mass is a Mass and Ash Wednesday "services" are not obligatory. The whole point of the sesason is Penance and thus making at least a period for confessions on Ash Wednesday a priority seems to me more important than providing 15 opportunities for people to attend Mass or "services" on a non-obligatory day.


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Quote:You won't go to hell because you aren't in a state of Sanctifying Grace on Ash Wednesday.  You go to hell because you aren't in a state of Sanctifying Grace on any day of the year.  Which makes my point - the problem isn't priests giving Ashes as they should be doing; the problem is people not going to Confession regularly.

Nobody is arguing that Catholics shouldn't confess frequently. They should go to Mass regularly too. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have zero masses on Ash Wednesday, just as it means we shouldn't have zero confessions on Ash Wednesday. The point is that the season of penance being kicked off with no penance and multiple distribution of sacramentals is wacky.

No one suggested zero confessions, but you did suggest they should not be holding Ash Wednesday services and holding confessions instead.

Not true. I addressed this above. Nowhere did I support the notion that zero Ash Wednesday services should be offered and instead confessions should be heard. I argued that it makes senses to sub confessions for the 3rd or 4th services.

Quote:This is not a mere sacramental.  It is how the Church liturgically starts the Lenten season.  Would you reduce Good Friday services to this?  Would you argue priests should give up Good Friday services to hear confessions?

If a priest offered 4 Good Friday services, I would certainly argue that he should forgo the 4th in order to offer confessions so that parishoners could more easily receive on Easter. Certainly.

Quote:Actually, you probably would.  It fits right in with your other distorted view of Catholicism that require 1950's haircuts.

[Image: laff.gif] I wonder where I stated that was a requirement to be Catholic! Of course it would be ideal for all Catholic men to have 1950's haircuts, but that is understood....

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Quote:Hey, if Ash Wednesday wakes people up, that's great.  But it doesn't mean the Church has to kiss our asses because we suddenly decided to get with the program.

Quote:Right. The Church doesn't have to kiss our asses by providing "Ash Wednesday" Catholics with 4 ash distribution services. Instead they should allow these Catholics the opportunity to get straight with God and come home and repent on Ash Wednesday through the sacrament of Penance. They need to get priorities straight. The apostates need confession before they need ashes.

The Church needs to get her priorities straight?  The arrogance is astounding.


It is you who proposed the Church would somehow be "kising our asses" by providing the sacrament of penance in order to save souls and prepare the faithful for Ash Wednesday. I suppose if my statements are "arrogant" yours could be considered sacrilegous.

But back to the realm of reality. Does the Church mandate 4 Ash services on Ash Wednesday? Of course not. So the problem really lies in the individual pastors feeling they have to provide 4 ash services and no confessions. Indeed a I feel that we as Catholics, and our pastors need to get our priorities straight!
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#54
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:ASH Wednesday is about ASHES.

This is the fundamental error. Ash Wednesday is about repentance and interior conversion, both tied intimately to the Sacrament of Penance which is a Sacrament, not a sacramental. The ashes are secondary and it's time the "Ash Wednesday Catholics" and some Pastors start realizing this and placing the primary focus on the soul instead of blessed ashes.

The ashes are an important reminder of our mortality and are a little "t" tradition. True. This is why I support going to Mass on Ash Wednesday. HOWEVER, the first priority should be making sure there are scheduled confessions that day. As long as they are available for the faithful to kick off and prepare the penitential season, I don't care if the priest has 26 Masses that day for ashes on top of it.

The ideal may be having one priest hear confessions before and during Ash Wednesday Masses said by another priest.

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#55
Moneil,

As I've made clear, I nowhere said that parishes should can all masses and have confessions instead. I'm saying that both are important and both should be offered. If that means doing away with the 4h ash service to hear confessions, I'm in favor of it. What good is it to talk about renewal and penance and forgiveness at the Ash Wednesday sermon when you have "Ash Wednesday Catholics" sitting in the pews in sin who haven't confessed in years. It would be a perfect occassion to say that tonight there will be confessions or to refer to the confessions offered right before (or during) the Mass.

The problem with "making an appointment" on Ash Wednesday to get your confession heard is that all of the priests are typically running around frantically trying to prepare for and offer 3-4 ash services and finish all the rest of their obligations and don't have time.

Of course you should try to go to confession frequently and schedule appointments when necessary. All I'm saying is that local pastors/ parishes should try to place more of a priority on offering confessions in preparation and to start Lent than feeling they have to offer 3 and 4 ash services when it is not a Holy Day of obligation. This is even more true when most likely there are 100's of other ash Wednesday services around the diocese that people can go to.
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#56
I'm tired of the nonsense, Stevus.
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#57
WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:Heretics can receive ashes.  As can children who are under the age of their first communion.  As can unbaptized heathens.

How loving God can be.


Yes, anyone can receive the sacramental.  However, there is something wrong with Protestants and Catholic holding hands in prayer in front of the Altar of God (this is what happened at this particular NO I am referring to)...especially when these Protestants deny the truths of the Catholic Church.  Unless "ecumenical services" are about bringing more people into the Catholic Church, I do not support them.

As for collections....this must be a central and south Texas thing.  I am surprised to learn that many parishes do not take collections.
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#58
With Stevus gone...this is just like the time gladius_varitatis was banned. [Image: sad.gif] I rather enjoyed Stevus's discussions
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#59
Not at the same time, but on the same day, yes. Four masses a day, at an hour to an hour and a half each, would take up to six hours out of the day - maybe half the waking hours, depending on the individual. Leaves time for other activities.

And if there's more than one priest saying mass, than things are even easier.
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#60
Carthusian Wrote:I rather enjoyed Stevus's discussions

So did I, when he was logical and not attacking the character of other people for no reason.
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