Vatican rejects +Williamson statement
#31
spasiisochrani Wrote:They are merely telling Bishop Williamson that he's not going to function as a bishop as long as he persists in being a crackpot.  If he knocks it off, they might consider it, but they are not making any promises.

Bishop Williamson openly stated that his reasons for those statements (even before he said them) were based on his research from the 80's and that his view is subject to change given new evidence. He has, at this time, said he was going to further investigate the matter.

He is not being irrational at all in this matter (not a "crackpot").
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#32
OKinyobe Wrote:Then perhaps you would like to explain how historically correct Williamson's remarks are
How shall I do that?  On a scale of 1 to 10?  God alone knows how many poor souls died in the holocaust.  Just because his remarks contradict the number that has been pounded into our heads by teachers and the media does not make them false.  Were you there, monitoring all the death camps and adjusting your abacus every time a Jew was killed? 

Better still, suppose he is completely wrong, and everything we've been led to believe is true.  So what?  He arrived at a false conclusion about a historical matter, nothing more.

Quote:and how it is moral to deny or denigrate mass murder or genocide.
He has not denigrated mass murder.  He isn't saying that mass murder is not important, nor is he downplaying its evil.  All he has done is question how large the mass really is.  We've been taught that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.  Bp. Williamson disputes that number, insisting it to be much smaller(I think he said around 300,000).  How can a Catholic call that immoral?  He disputes numbers, not morality.

***Edited***



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#33
Gondalus Wrote:He has not denigrated mass murder.  He isn't saying that mass murder is not important, nor is he downplaying its evil.  All he has done is question how large the mass really is. We've been taught that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.  Bp. Williamson disputes that number, insisting it to be much smaller (I think he said around 300,000). How can a Catholic call that immoral?  He disputes numbers, not morality.

Finally, some sanity!
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#34
Gondalus Wrote:
OKinyobe Wrote:Then perhaps you would like to explain how historically correct Williamson's remarks are
How shall I do that?  On a scale of 1 to 10?  God alone knows how many poor souls died in the holocaust.  Just because his remarks contradict the number that has been pounded into our heads by teachers and the media does not make them false.  Were you there, monitoring all the death camps and adjusting your abacus every time a Jew was killed? 

Better still, suppose he is completely wrong, and everything we've been led to believe is true.  So what?  He arrived at a false conclusion about a historical matter, nothing more.

Quote:and how it is moral to deny or denigrate mass murder or genocide.
He has not denigrated mass murder.  He isn't saying that mass murder is not important, nor is he downplaying its evil.  All he has done is question how large the mass really is.  We've been taught that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.  Bp. Williamson disputes that number, insisting it to be much smaller(I think he said around 300,000).  How can a Catholic call that immoral?  He disputes numbers, not morality.

***Edited***

What number is good enough for you or Williamson (NOT bishop, remember- that's why he was excommunicated)? Seriously. I want to hear how European Jewry pulled off the greatest snow job in history. I would like to hear how the Nazis- efficient record-takers and anti-semites- were coerced at the Nuremburg trials into admitting the mass arrest and deaths of not just Jews but the disabled, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Gypsies and priests (who, apparently, could not have died if the Holocaust was a sham). What? Did they pick a number out of a hat? Are memories of survivors just that or merely fabrications for a willingly gullible public? This was all done for the state of Israel? A piece of desert? Why not go for something bigger like Canada with rich oil sands and vast amounts of fresh water? Who did Allied troops liberate if not Jews (or Poles)?
To what end would you question that which thousands of people- not just Jews- have studied? Remember that the admission of the Holocaust would have no effect on the end of the Pacific theatre of the Second World War, nor would it have had any political meaning for the Japanese who have yet to make full address for their war crimes (or maybe they don't matter).
The only thing I can think of is that people are still fried over a centuries old crime. Though His Death is repugnant, Jesus was born into God's chosen people and it is through Him we are saved. How should the feat of our salvation be accomplished and how should the roots of the early Church be spread if not for the Jews?
I am not talking about some loudmouths in the liberal press or the ADL. They don't deserve the press they are getting for their slurs. What Williamson is denying is wrong historically and morally. If you doubt the Holocaust, then prove it's a fraud.
And even if only two million were killed, so what? Is it right to target a group and kill them? No one wants to open those floodgates unless they have no soul.
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#35
OKinyobe Wrote:What number is good enough for you or Williamson (NOT bishop, remember- that's why he was excommunicated)? Seriously. I want to hear how European Jewry pulled off the greatest snow job in history. I would like to hear how the Nazis- efficient record-takers and anti-semites- were coerced at the Nuremburg trials into admitting the mass arrest and deaths of not just Jews but the disabled, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Gypsies and priests (who, apparently, could not have died if the Holocaust was a sham). What? Did they pick a number out of a hat? Are memories of survivors just that or merely fabrications for a willingly gullible public? This was all done for the state of Israel? A piece of desert? Why not go for something bigger like Canada with rich oil sands and vast amounts of fresh water? Who did Allied troops liberate if not Jews (or Poles)?
To what end would you question that which thousands of people- not just Jews- have studied? Remember that the admission of the Holocaust would have no effect on the end of the Pacific theatre of the Second World War, nor would it have had any political meaning for the Japanese who have yet to make full address for their war crimes (or maybe they don't matter).
The only thing I can think of is that people are still fried over a centuries old crime. Though His Death is repugnant, Jesus was born into God's chosen people and it is through Him we are saved. How should the feat of our salvation be accomplished and how should the roots of the early Church be spread if not for the Jews?
I am not talking about some loudmouths in the liberal press or the ADL. They don't deserve the press they are getting for their slurs. What Williamson is denying is wrong historically and morally. If you doubt the Holocaust, then prove it's a fraud.
This long-winded and emotional response does not add anything to the argument.  Nowhere do you address how, from a Catholic standpoint, Bp. Williamson's remarks are immoral.  What point of Catholic dogma do they deny?  What precept of the Church do they break?  None.  Not only that, but you breezed over the points I made before as if I hadn't said a word. 

Quote:And even if only two million were killed, so what? Is it right to target a group and kill them? No one wants to open those floodgates unless they have no soul.
How does arguing over how many were killed suggest that "it is right to target a group and kill them"?  This man is a Catholic bishop.  You seem to begin your argument with this premise:

P: Bishop Williamson disputes the number of Jews killed in the holocaust.

Then, you draw this conclusion(somehow):

C1: Bishop Williamson denies that the holocaust ever happened.

And the crescendo:

C2: Bishop Williamson endorses genocide.

These are radical leaps from someone who cries for "proof."  The only one that holds a shred of truth is P1.  Do you not see the illogicality of your position?  As for Bp. Williamson being "NOT a bishop," you are dead wrong.  He may not have normal jurisdiction, but his consecration was nonetheless valid.
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#36
Gondalus Wrote:
OKinyobe Wrote:What number is good enough for you or Williamson (NOT bishop, remember- that's why he was excommunicated)? Seriously. I want to hear how European Jewry pulled off the greatest snow job in history. I would like to hear how the Nazis- efficient record-takers and anti-semites- were coerced at the Nuremburg trials into admitting the mass arrest and deaths of not just Jews but the disabled, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Gypsies and priests (who, apparently, could not have died if the Holocaust was a sham). What? Did they pick a number out of a hat? Are memories of survivors just that or merely fabrications for a willingly gullible public? This was all done for the state of Israel? A piece of desert? Why not go for something bigger like Canada with rich oil sands and vast amounts of fresh water? Who did Allied troops liberate if not Jews (or Poles)?
To what end would you question that which thousands of people- not just Jews- have studied? Remember that the admission of the Holocaust would have no effect on the end of the Pacific theatre of the Second World War, nor would it have had any political meaning for the Japanese who have yet to make full address for their war crimes (or maybe they don't matter).
The only thing I can think of is that people are still fried over a centuries old crime. Though His Death is repugnant, Jesus was born into God's chosen people and it is through Him we are saved. How should the feat of our salvation be accomplished and how should the roots of the early Church be spread if not for the Jews?
I am not talking about some loudmouths in the liberal press or the ADL. They don't deserve the press they are getting for their slurs. What Williamson is denying is wrong historically and morally. If you doubt the Holocaust, then prove it's a fraud.
This long-winded and emotional response does not add anything to the argument.  Nowhere do you address how, from a Catholic standpoint, Bp. Williamson's remarks are immoral.  What point of Catholic dogma do they deny?  What precept of the Church do they break?  None.  Not only that, but you breezed over the points I made before as if I hadn't said a word. 

Quote:And even if only two million were killed, so what? Is it right to target a group and kill them? No one wants to open those floodgates unless they have no soul.
How does arguing over how many were killed suggest that "it is right to target a group and kill them"?  This man is a Catholic bishop.  You seem to begin your argument with this premise:

P: Bishop Williamson disputes the number of Jews killed in the holocaust.

Then, you draw this conclusion(somehow):

C1: Bishop Williamson denies that the holocaust ever happened.

And the crescendo:

C2: Bishop Williamson endorses genocide.

These are radical leaps from someone who cries for "proof."  The only one that holds a shred of truth is P1.  Do you not see the illogicality of your position?  As for Bp. Williamson being "NOT a bishop," you are dead wrong.  He may not have normal jurisdiction, but his consecration was nonetheless valid.

That's right. Everyone who disagrees with you is emotional. Sure. Whatever.
Williamson ISN't a bishop.
Secondly, to deny a mass murder is denigrate human life and legitimise attacks on the human person, ergo, violating the fifth commandment. Willful ignorance and outright lies violates the eighth commandment. Does that round things off? If not, go here, here, here, here, here and here.
Thirdly, what is Williamson's motivation for denying any aspect of the Holocaust, whether the aspects or its reality? He's a Jew-hater. He is. And an unrepentant one at that. Have you heard him apologise for making those statements? He hasn't. he only "apologised" for any "inconvenience" it may have caused. He ought not to have bothered if his only response to denying the destruction of human life and putting the Church (which has been very damn good to him considering all things) and its leader in hot water with some lukewarm mumble.
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#37
OKinyobe Wrote:Sure. Whatever. Williamson ISN't a bishop.

His Excellency IS a bishop whether you like it or not. Please, cease your vitriol against a good bishop of Holy Mother Church. This is outrageous!

Quote:Secondly, to deny a mass murder is denigrate human life and legitimise attacks on the human person, ergo, violating the fifth commandment. Willful ignorance and outright lies violates the eighth commandment. Does that round things off?

Your conclusions are completely unwarranted. His Excellency questioned the official number of Jewish victims of the Nazi regime in WWII (the "sacred" 6,000,000 figure) and the existence of gas chambers in the Nazi concentration camps. None of such legitimate questioning - a matter of historical inquiry and of historical truth - has anything to do with "denigrating" human life or "legitimizing" attacks on the human person. By your line of reasoning - a line of reasoning sadly adopted by most European courts nowadays - the only possible inquiries on the historical events of WWII are inquires that happen to confirm the Holocaust version defended and propagated by zionist interests.

Your accusations against the good bishop are clearly biased, indemonstrable, loaded with an emotional hysteria more fitting of an ADL disciple and, frankly, outrageous.

Quote:Thirdly, what is Williamson's motivation for denying any aspect of the Holocaust, whether the aspects or its reality? He's a Jew-hater. He is. And an unrepentant one at that.

This is nothing but sheer calumny against a bishop of Holy Mother Church. Shame on you. Your bias and hatred towards His Excellency is appalling.
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#38
OKinyobe Wrote:Secondly, to deny a mass murder is denigrate human life and legitimise attacks on the human person, ergo, violating the fifth commandment. Willful ignorance and outright lies violates the eighth commandment.

Again, Bp. Williamson has not "denied a mass murder", merely questioned the size of the mass.  He isn't questioning whether or not, but how many

Furthermore, "to deny a mass murder" is not "to denigrate human life."  If a serial killer is thought to have killed 12 people, and Francis comes along and suggests that he only really killed 4, that does not mean Francis is "denigrating human life."  He is merely disputing the facts. 
Quote:Thirdly, what is Williamson's motivation for denying any aspect of the Holocaust, whether the aspects or its reality? He's a Jew-hater. He is. And an unrepentant one at that.
That is calumny, for God alone knows his motivations.  If he truly believes that everyone has been misled, that might also motivate him to say what he thinks(Heaven forbid!).  Your words are imprudently chosen and very un-Catholic.
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#39
OKinyobe Wrote:The only thing I can think of is that people are still fried over a centuries old crime. Though His Death is repugnant, Jesus was born into God's chosen people and it is through Him we are saved. How should the feat of our salvation be accomplished and how should the roots of the early Church be spread if not for the Jews?


If this is true then why was St Paul the Apostle on the road to Damascus?

I think you'll find that it was the Jews who tried to wipe out the roots of the early church, not encourage them to be spread. It is entirely due to the grace of God that a remnant of Jews nevertheless did so. In this way, it was inspite of, and not because of the Jews that the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ was received by the gentiles.

You may be trying to express some sort of outrage, but intellectually, you don't have much to bargain with. You can hardly expect people to take your protestations seriously.


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#40
Okay-
Williamson is not a bishop. He never was. Why was he excommunicated? Because Archbishop Lefevebre consecrated him and others against the wishes of the Vatican, making his status as a bishop invalid. Even if he was a bishop, he is still in error. Do you have great respect for bishops who coddle pro-abortion politicians? How about bishops who call John Paul II "John Paul the Great"?
What calumny is against Mother Church? Explain that to me. Is it because I think Williamson is an embarrassment? Why should one be proud of him? He was proud in the error that got him excommunicated and when he was brought back into the Church, he treated the great privilege as something he was excused from without just cause. When asked to explain himself and apologise for the current offending comments, he only "apologised" for a bit of inconvenience. Does this sound like a man who really wants to repent?
When did Williamson ever qualify anything he said, whether about the Holocaust or his other pet conspiracies being the September 11th attacks and the movie, "The Sound of Music", being "pornographic"? Given ample opportunity to explain himself and provide the basis for his beliefs, he hasn't. Where Holocaust scholars provide eye witness accounts, survivors' accounts, photographs, census records and the Nazis' records, Williamson has come up painfully short. All he has to is justify what he said. Did he ever say he has proof?
Whether people like it or not, God chose the Jews as the people to whom He would reveal Himself. From the House of David came the means of our salvation. Jesus' disciples, His friends and soon the people from outlying areas of Galilee were all Jews. Let's not forget Saint Edith Stein (one of the "magic 6,000,000"). Unfortunately, not everybody got the message but then again, there are Christians who don't get it, either.
People will hate Christianity and Catholicism anyway. Williamson shouldn't be providing them with a reason. Why should anyone join the Church if they believe people within it would deny mass murder for no apparent reason?

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