Vatican rejects +Williamson statement
#41
Quote:Okay-
Williamson is not a bishop. He never was. Why was he excommunicated? Because Archbishop Lefevebre consecrated him and others against the wishes of the Vatican, making his status as a bishop invalid.
Yes he is a bishop. The validity of Holy Orders does not rely on jurisdiction.



Quote:Whether people like it or not, God chose the Jews as the people to whom He would reveal Himself. From the House of David came the means of our salvation. Jesus' disciples, His friends and soon the people from outlying areas of Galilee were all Jews. Let's not forget Saint Edith Stein (one of the "magic 6,000,000"). Unfortunately, not everybody got the message but then again, there are Christians who don't get it, either.
The Jews are no longer chosen unless they are baptized.



 
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#42
OKinyobe Wrote:Okay-
 Let's not forget Saint Edith Stein (one of the "magic 6,000,000").

How do we know she's not one of the "more realistic 300,000"?   
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#43
I am confused by this thread, perhaps someone could enlighten me.  It sounds like Bishop Williamson is being lauded for standing for the "truth" when in fact he is propagating an historical error (and I fail to see what any of this has to do with the Faith, except that the media plays up the fact that he is a member of the clergy).  Apart from denigrating the horrors of what occurred at the hands of the Nazi regime to the Jews, he is also denigrating all the Catholics who also lost their lives in the gas chambers, starvation chambers, experimental "hospitals" and other atrocities of the death camps, people like St. Maximilian Kolby, and St. Teresa Benedicta. Why is everyone so positive about this?
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#44
Just to clarify, he did not deny the "Holocust" Jewish persecution at the hands of Nazis. He believes the number of the dead was not as high as commonly believed and that they didnt' die by gas chambers.

But other than that, I do agree with you.


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#45
Bishop Williamson did not deny the halohoax. but oknobey if it really means that much to you. I DO!
So there go pout with the jews, because trashing a good bishop over the net is nothing the action of a coward!! if your in toronto and would like to meet to clear this up pm me because  you need to be taught a lesson in respect. But eh im sure your safe behind your keyboard
im sorry i just couldnt stay out of this for long cowards bug me!


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#46
OKinyobe Wrote:Okay-
Williamson is not a bishop. He never was. Why was he excommunicated? Because Archbishop Lefevebre consecrated him and others against the wishes of the Vatican, making his status as a bishop invalid. Even if he was a bishop, he is still in error. Do you have great respect for bishops who coddle pro-abortion politicians? How about bishops who call John Paul II "John Paul the Great"?
What calumny is against Mother Church? Explain that to me. Is it because I think Williamson is an embarrassment? Why should one be proud of him? He was proud in the error that got him excommunicated and when he was brought back into the Church, he treated the great privilege as something he was excused from without just cause. When asked to explain himself and apologize for the current offending comments, he only "apologized" for a bit of inconvenience. Does this sound like a man who really wants to repent?
When did Williamson ever qualify anything he said, whether about the Holocaust or his other pet conspiracies being the September 11th attacks and the movie, "The Sound of Music", being "pornographic"? Given ample opportunity to explain himself and provide the basis for his beliefs, he hasn't. Where Holocaust scholars provide eye witness accounts, survivors' accounts, photographs, census records and the Nazis' records, Williamson has come up painfully short. All he has to is justify what he said. Did he ever say he has proof?
Whether people like it or not, God chose the Jews as the people to whom He would reveal Himself. From the House of David came the means of our salvation. Jesus' disciples, His friends and soon the people from outlying areas of Galilee were all Jews. Let's not forget Saint Edith Stein (one of the "magic 6,000,000"). Unfortunately, not everybody got the message but then again, there are Christians who don't get it, either.
People will hate Christianity and Catholicism anyway. Williamson shouldn't be providing them with a reason. Why should anyone join the Church if they believe people within it would deny mass murder for no apparent reason?
What is your point with Williamson and "proof" of his opinion anyway?
Can you absolutely, positively prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that at least 6 million people from the ethnic,cultural,religious, and racial background that is officially documented of the people known as "Jews" were systematically round up,interned,and eventually murdered in in gas chambers during WW?

First of all, the act in itself is an atrocity, even if one innocent(although that word is way overused in the English language, no one is truly innocent) civilian was indeed murdered this way or any other during that war and to be sure, there were millions who did meet a horrible death due to a conflict that was totally avoidable to begin with, but that's another story.

Another thing, show me one example where +Williamson "coddled" to a pro-abort politico, just one. But I can indeed show you how many "Pelosi's" and "Kennedy's" are still receiving Communion out there while many NO bishops remain perfectly silent, regardless of the millions of the silent screams cry up to heaven.

Oh there will be a judgment for their non-action someday, I can assure you.


+Williamson cannot "apologize" for stating which he believes is the truth gathered  by what has been revealed to him, to do otherwise, would be a sin, what part of that can't you get through your thick skull.......


God did indeed choose the Hebrews from which the savior would come, no one is denying that, yes it was from the House of David that our Lord descended from, and Jesus diciplesand friends were all Galileans within Judea, hence Judeans, sometimes referred to as "jews", what is your point?

Jesus did not practice what is known today as Judaism, they believe he is nothing more than a false prophet and an impostor, a phony, a fake, and a fraud.

Don't preach to Catholics, that we aren't "getting the message", you should direct it to those who really don't.


People don't just "hate" Christianity or Catholicism or even Judaism, but they despise cowardice, double-mindedness, and failure to stand firm in their convictions,In other words, men who don't have the courage to stand up for what they believe to be the truth and grovel and squirm in the face of a bunch of lying,degenerate,false-accusing paranoid anti-Christ's.
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#47
OKinyobe Wrote:Okay-
Williamson is not a bishop. He never was. Why was he excommunicated? Because Archbishop Lefevebre consecrated him and others against the wishes of the Vatican, making his status as a bishop invalid.
This is false, and I doubt there are many others who adhere to this muddled viewpoint.  Perhaps you should research the difference between validity and licitness.  A validly ordained bishop(such as Bp. Williamson) can still confer sacraments validly.   However, he has a very irregular jurisdiction.  This is admittedly a bit complicated, so you should look into it before you brashly proclaim his consecration "invalid."

Quote:Even if he was a bishop, he is still in error.
 
If he is wrong, his error is about history, not Catholicism.  If I go around saying that Julius Caesar was not an emperor of Rome, I make an historlcal error.  If I'm wrong, it doesn't make me a "Caesar-hater."  It is not a cause for all this "scandal."

Quote:Do you have great respect for bishops who coddle pro-abortion politicians?
 
No, but there is a huge difference between "coddling" the murderers of children and questioning history.  The former is sinful and scandalous, the latter is neither.

Quote:What calumny is against Mother Church? Explain that to me. Is it because I think Williamson is an embarrassment?


Merriam Websters online dictionary Wrote:
Main Entry:
cal·um·ny [Image: audio.gif]
1 : a misrepresentation intended to harm another's reputation 2 : the act of uttering false charges or misreprentation maliciously calculated to harm

You did this when you called him "a Jew-Hater" because he disputed how many were killed.

Quote: Does this sound like a man who really wants to repent?
You talk as though he'd sinned.  If I think the sun is blue, what I need is not "repentance," but a further evaluation of the sun.  Nothing more. 

Quote:Whether people like it or not, God chose the Jews as the people to whom He would reveal Himself. From the House of David came the means of our salvation.


By God's will, not by some divine nature of the Jews themselves.  This has nothing to do with Bp. Williamson disputing how many were killed.

Quote:Jesus' disciples, His friends and soon the people from outlying areas of Galilee were all Jews.
 
Until Jesus came around and wrote the New Covenant with His blood.  Many of them soon converted.

Quote:Let's not forget Saint Edith Stein (one of the "magic 6,000,000")
 

Please, let's.  The unorthodox cannonizations of the past 40 years are a different can of worms entirely.  Besides, this still has nothing to do with Bp. Williamson's dispute of the 6,000,000 figure.  You make points that have nothing to do with the argument.  

Quote:Why should anyone join the Church if they believe people within it would deny mass murder for no apparent reason?
  
Because it is the path to salvation?  Because "extra ecclesiam nulla salus?"  Because if you don't join the Catholic Church, you will probably go to Hell forever?  Of course, what does salvation matter?  A bishop questioned the extent of the holocaust!  I'm not joining them.

Look, I'm clearly not getting through to you at all.  Your persistence in ignoring each point I make reminds me of when I yell at my computer for giving me a message about an error I've already fixed.  I have tried to show where you are wrong; the rest is up to you.  Let him who has ears to hear, hear.

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#48
I'm not ignoring you, Gondalus. I just think you're insane. And wrong. And offensive. But I am not ignoring you.
DevotedKnuckles, I know you are never going to carry out anything you say. Period.
Look- what part of the Holocaust is so offensive to people? Seriously?

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#49
OKinyobe Wrote:Look- what part of the Holocaust is so offensive to people? Seriously?

The crimes of the Nazi's are not disputed, nor are they seen as less than they are. It is the use of it by the enemies of the Church that most find offensive.

Bishop Williamson made a statement it was his personal idea based on research he did in the 80's that gas chambers were not used (which really doesn't matter, he never disputed there was mass murder just the means of it) and that fewer than 6 million Jews were killed (300,000). That is all. For this, there is a huge uproar. People are mocking the Church in the most vile of ways and he is being persecuted by almost everyone, even the USA congress. Just for holding an opinion.

All that needed to be done was to show that the research he did was wrong and show the evidence of the gas chambers (which is easily done) and the 6 million body count (which is not easily done, it was never a real number). There is more outrage over him than is warranted.
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#50
There is more outrage over what the Bishop said than is warranted, however, the heart of the matter seems to be being overlooked. It isn't if he is right or wrong, if he is being vilified because of what he stands for (his public image), but the fact that he has deeply offended so very many people who lost family members, or who themselves suffered at the hands of the Nazis.  To borrow from an earlier poster (sorry, I am new and haven't yet figured out how to quote) If a serial killer is guilty of killing 12 people and a public figure states that he believes only 4 died, the families of the other 8 would be offended, and rightly so, because of the denial of the suffering and death of their family member. It is this offense to other human beings that the Bishop needs to apologize for.
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