Is it wrong to pray for good fortune?
#21
Quote:Oneill:- you are speaking nonsense.
Yes, that is insulting. Instead of asking me to clarify what I meant, or to cite my reasoning for my statements (I'm Catholic and follow Catholic teachings, so I am either misinformed or using actual Catholic teachings for my statements, calling what I said nonsense is rejecting a time to learn or teach, depending on the situation), it was a personally attack "you are speaking nonsense". I could say it isn't my fault he is incapable of understanding, but I don't make personal attacks, even when confronted with them and prefer to use rational discussions to resolve possible conflicts in understanding.
It is not gratifying to have something I wrote called nonsense, especially when it was an attempt to help another person. 
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#22
ONeill Wrote:
Quote:Oneill:- you are speaking nonsense.
Yes, that is insulting. Instead of asking me to clarify what I meant, or to cite my reasoning for my statements (I'm Catholic and follow Catholic teachings, so I am either misinformed or using actual Catholic teachings for my statements, calling what I said nonsense is rejecting a time to learn or teach, depending on the situation), it was a personally attack "you are speaking nonsense". I could say it isn't my fault he is incapable of understanding, but I don't make personal attacks, even when confronted with them and prefer to use rational discussions to resolve possible conflicts in understanding.
It is not gratifying to have something I wrote called nonsense, especially when it was an attempt to help another person. 

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. Maybe you could point out the Catholic teaching you're basing it on? I think you're style of 'less is more' communication doesn't work for everyone (I misunderstand you a lot for example). Also, he's clearly emotionally invested in this, and you're generally dispassionate, another style thing, that maybe it came off as pithy or glib.
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#23
Sorry for insulting you (and others) ONeill. It was uncalled for and uncharitable.  

It's a bit of a hobby horse of mine at the moment. It's like watching TV evangelists and other charletons preying on the weak and vulnerable, particularly in this economic climate with their "get rich quick with Jesus" schemes as if it were possible to strike a deal with God the way Faust did with the devil. They are the ones I want to insult and slap across the face - not you.

 The point I was trying to make is that the rich man who puts his trust and faith in money instead of God is not building a stairway to heaven regardless of how much money he gives to worthy charities, but building a barrier to heaven and cutting himself off from real blessings. The poor man who envy's the rich man his wealth does exactly the same to himself also.

The spirit world is just as real, in fact more so, as the material world. It is a question of seeing things in perspective. Charletans with their emphasis on material well being blind people to this ultimate reality. No wonder then that their victims end up so disillusioned with God.


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#24
I agree with you, NathanSoc, about your sentiments with regard to the Protestant fad "wealth as a blessing" and it's pretty disgusting and seems just to be a rehashing of forms of Calvinism.

Of course, I don't believe that's what Lisa, ONeill, etc., were implying.  I'm just saying I know what you are talking about in the mass media, and I agree it's foul.

Though, personally, I like Dave Ramsey except for his "wealth as blessing attitude".  I think one really can have an apostolate helping people with their finances and encouraging them to be charitable with their money after they have made it.  I mean, if we can help the sick, why not the poor who are poor because they lack money management skills?

Something else foul that I've seen recently is "Scriptural Dieting".  They are diets (yes, to lose weight) supposedly based on Scripture.  Like the Bible is the Atkins book or something.  Ack.


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#25
I think my point was made the best and shortest in my first post on this thread:
Me Wrote:As long as you accept whatever is given as being the best for you. Seek the kingdom of God first, and you will get what you need.
Luke 12:31 Wrote:But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.
My second post is based entirely on this first post (and it was this one that was succinctly labelled nonsense).
Quote:All given to us is a blessing to be used according to God's will. If God gives us riches, it is a blessing is it not? All things are possible with God, and even a rich man may be saved. I do not think God will allow someone to be rich by good means if they did not have the grace to use their riches wisely.
It is not a "new Catholic" idea; it is a fact. If God gives us something, it is a blessing and should be used appropriately. If we are given wealth, health, a spouse, children, etc, we are tasked to comply with God's will and give thanks for what is given.
Note, I say "if God gives us riches", not "if we seek and desire riches". If someone is justly rich, then it must be good for that person was given riches. It is also a great burden I think (for that reason, I do not want riches...). What if the book I'm writing becomes popular and I get a lot of money? I'm writing for the information, not money (I do not expect any money from it), but what if I do get money? It is up to me to use that money wisely and according to God's will is it not? Hardly nonsense and I do not think this post was vague at all, unless someone had a prior assumption of what I was trying to say, in which case that is hardly my fault.


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#26
Quote:Note, I say "if God gives us riches", not "if we seek and desire riches".

I don't think God gives us riches, Oneill. I don't think God sends dollars from heaven.

People acquire wealth in three ways:

1. Earn it (morally or immorally, honestly or dishonestly - whatever the case may be)

2. Inherit it

3. By luck (eg. winning the lottery).

I don't see God has any direct hand in any of these things.
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#27
I do think God gives us riches. When Jesus told the rich man to give his possessions (or sell them) and give the proceeds to the poor, where did the poor get their riches (if the man did as he was told)? 
Read: http://www.drbo.org/chapter/20001.htm
Job was rich and was just. He earned (you could say) his riches, but he used them with the grace of God while he had them. When they were taken away, he still lived in the grace of God. That is what I meant in my posts. Riches come and go, no matter what, live for God first and give thanks for what is given to you, whether it be a prosperous job or a few dollars to eat that day.
I don't see how one can not see God's hand in earning money justly or getting it by luck. I needed some money recently (I'm unemployed) and someone sent a some money to me for a rosary I made for them (the free ones, I do not typically get responses from people who I give rosaries, let alone money). Yes, the person chose to give it to me, but was that person not acting with the grace of God?
EDIT: To clarify, I do not see riches as super abundance and great luxury but having enough to live and more in relative comfort. 
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#28
Oneill:-

The rosary is not a good luck charm. We live in an imperfect world and accidents (both good and bad) happen. So we can attribute all sorts of causes to things. But if you believe that God is directly the cause for your material well-being I will not disabuse you of that. I just hope you would still have praised Him even if this money had not turned up.




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#29
I know what the rosary is....
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. My post was not about the rosary, only some background. It was $10, enough to buy food for that week. That is what I consider a gift from God and riches. Enough to use for a short time; my daily bread.
And I already said that one has to have faith in God no matter what is given and to trust in God; there is no reason for you to repeat that to me.
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#30

Personally I think it was a very nice gesture from someone who appreciated your work, ONeill.
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