The Meaning of "Catholic Church"
#11
Quote:a practicing Muslim who loves God above all else, feels sorry for their sins, and believes God rewards those who seek Him may be saved without any belief in Christ or resort to the sacraments of the Church

 

It is error to believe that). A man is capable (capax ) of absolution, however much he may labor in ignorance of the mysteries of the faith, and even though through negligence, be it even culpable, he does not know the Mystery of the Most Holy Trinity and of the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pope Innocent XI

 

All those things are to be believed by divine and catholic Faith...which are

 proposed by the Church eithe rin solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office as divinely revealed truths which must be believed...since without Faith it is impossible to please God, no one may be justified without it, nor will anyone attain eternal life unless he perserves to the end in it.

Vatican I

 

If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but that they are superfluous: let him be anathema

Trent
 

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#12
Didish,

I'm with you; let this play out.

The Church does not commit error regarding things pertaining to salvation. Even when she speaks with the ordinary magisterium, she is consistent - I believe that. And the statements you cite are consistent with the salvation of someone with perfect contrition and implicit desire. 

Take, for example, the Catechism:

Quote:1260 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Consider most of these types of statements as capturing a person on a time line. Is there anything here which bars the event of the person being described coming to the Church and being baptized down the road? No. Any person who seeks the truth "can be saved." Sure they can, and if they seek, they will find. At the time they are seeking and don't know of baptism, it may be supposed that, had they known of baptism's necessity, they would have explicitly desired it. But at the stage on their journey on this time line that the Church is describing, they don't know yet of its necessity.

These words can be twisted to mean the most ridiculous things. Perhaps Satan is playing with their ambiguity, perhaps God is testing us. What is certain is that the Church can not be wrong on an issue so central to its mission, which is all about salvation. I know she does not speak infallibly here, but I just can't fathom that she can be wrong here in her ordinary magisterium on such a matter.

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#13
Quote:Didish,

I'm with you; let this play out

I'm not playing anything. I'm interested only in Truth.
 
 

Quote:The Church does not commit error regarding things pertaining to salvation. Even when she speaks with the ordinary magisterium, she is consistent - I believe that.

There is no way to determine whether or not the ordinary magesterium is consistent or not. It's too vast.
 
 
Quote:And the statements you cite are consistent with the salvation of someone with perfect contrition and implicit desire.

No they are in complete opposition.
 
 

Quote:Consider most of these types of statements as capturing a person on a time line. Is there anything here which bars the event of the person being described coming to the Church and being baptized down the road? No. Any person who seeks the truth "can be saved." Sure they can, and if they seek, they will find. At the time they are seeking and don't know of baptism, it may be supposed that, had they known of baptism's necessity, they would have explicitly desired it. But at the stage on their journey on this time line that the Church is describing, they don't know yet of its necessity.
These are simply speculations that tamper with infallible dogma which makes no exceptions for those that are unbaptized. If they desire salvation and seek to do what is good then yes God will provide. Why must people insist on bringing up imaginary people and bringing in imaginary roadblocks for salavation in order to justify their theories on salvation. Why do we assume that God lets people die without the chance or possibility of baptism when He and the Church have stressed its necessity?
 I am uninterested in games and cooking up fanatasies about non-Catholic but well intended people. I am only interested in what has been infallibly defined for us and it has been defined that as there is only one God, there is only baptism and it is of water and the Spirit and is necessary for membership in the Church and thus for salvation. No exceptions or distinctions are made. And so I am uninterested in anything that tries to go beyond that. 

Quote: What is certain is that the Church can not be wrong on an issue so central to its mission, which is all about salvation. I know she does not speak infallibly here, but I just can't fathom that she can be wrong here in her ordinary magisterium on such a matter.
The ordinary magesterium can be wrong and has been proven to be wrong in the past. That's why we have the extraordinary magesterium. To clear up what the ordindary failed to do. Pope John taught error in a Sunday sermon before recanting it on his deathbed. The Immaculate Conception was denied and even forbidden to be taught by many saints and bishops. The ordinary magesterum can be infallible but is not guaranteed it. 

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