holy Trent infallibly taught that Justification IS Grace by which alone is Salvation.
#1
This is the most important Sacred and Catholic Dogma of Trent against the centuries-old Protestant heresy of salvation that "sola fide" or "faith alone". Catholic Dogma teaches (very clearly in the Council of Orange) that savlation is by grace alone.
As our Holy and Sacred Catholic Scriptures teaches: "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God..." Ephesians 2:8
"But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also." (Acts Of Apostles 15:11
"Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption, that is in Christ Jesus..." Romans 3:24
And the Council of Trent infallibly defined:
Quote:A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace:
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
Reply
#2
veritatem_dilexisti Wrote:"[B]onum proprium non potest esse sine bono communi vel familiae vel civitatis aut regni." (St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, II-II, q. 47, a. 10) = "The individual good is impossible without the common good of the family, state, or kingdom."

"Facile ergo discitur quod sine intensione ingenii aut iudicii aut diligentiae discitur …" (Comenius, Novissima linguarum methodus) = "That is therefore easily learnt, which is learnt without exertion of talent, judgment or industry."

This clearly proves that aut can have a conjunctive meaning, as Feeneyites uphold of the following: "[Q]uæ quidem translatio, post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis aut ejus voto, fieri non potest …" (Council of Trent, sixth session, chapter IV)
 = "Which translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof." Both are necessary, as the Church teaches: this translation cannot be effected with the laver of regeneration if this is against the will of the person putatively baptised; or with the desire for baptism alone, without the laver of regeneration, as the Council clearly declares (seventh session, De baptismo, canons II and V): true and natural water is of necessity for baptism; and baptism is necessary for salvation. I needn't give you the conclusion to this syllogism.
Reply
#3
veritatem_dilexisti, what does that have to do with Justification being Grace? Can you not understand that Christian Baptism (Cleansing) is a Spiritual Reality of the soul? The Sacrament of Baptism is not the Baptism itself but only the Sacrament. What is a sacrament? A sacrament is a external visible sign effecting an invisible Reality, namely, Grace. Right? Baptism (Cleansing) of the soul from all sin is absolutely necessary for salvation but the Sacrament itself is not. The same is true with the Sacrament of Penance which Grace can be effected without the Sacrament itself being applied for as our God Jesus Himself said "with God all things are possible". You feeneyites seem to desire to have God be some kind of monster who damns great numbers of good-willed souls just because they were or are inable of receiving the divine message of the Gospel even after Christ His Son suffered and died the most painfully death on the holy Cross for these souls.
Reply
#4
Quote:You feeneyites seem to desire to have God be some kind of monster who damns great numbers of good-willed souls just because they were or are inable of receiving the divine message of the Gospel even after Christ His Son suffered and died the most painfully death on the holy Cross for these souls.

 
Please refrain from the term "Feeneyites." It is offensive and used to degrade the members of his Order as well as its suporters, as if they are some sort of heretical/schismatic sect.
 
Neither Fr. Feeney nor his Order preach a monstrous God.

They simply reiterate what the Bible, saints, doctors, fathers, popes and councils have said on matters of salvation.

No man is lost without fault on his part. Anyone who truly desires to do good will be given the opportunity to hear the Gospel.

God is not bound by geography. It is blasphemous to insuate that He is.The Bible and stories of saints show miraculous events occuring so the good can hear the Gospel when ordianry means are impossible.
The Church has stated that only those that possess the Catholic Faith can enter heaven. This is not "Feeneyism" its Catholicism. Look it up.  

Reply
#5
didishroom Wrote:Please refrain from the term "Feeneyites."
If we can call ourselves "traditionalists" then I can call them "Feeneyites". The term is most fitting since they are self-professed followers of Fr. Feeney's opinions.
Quote:as if they are some sort of heretical/schismatic sect.
As if they objectively aren't?

Quote:Neither Fr. Feeney nor his Order preach a monstrous God.
That is why I wrote "seem". I make no judgements on their intentions. I only judge that their opinions are erroneous and the Church's hierarchy right before the brakeout of heresy backs me up.

Quote:They simply reiterate what the Bible, saints, doctors, fathers, popes and councils have said on matters of salvation.
Only according to their own erroneous private interpretations but not Holy Mother Church's infallible interpretation.

Quote:Anyone who truly desires to do good will be given the opportunity to hear the Gospel.
That is not a Dogma so no one has to believe it. It may be so but it is not defined as a revealed truth by any Pope.

Quote:God is not bound by geography. It is blasphemous to insuate that He is.
No one is saying He is. Are you not deceiving people though by insuating that others are. How much more blasphemous is it to insuate that God is bound by our intellectual knowledge?

Quote:The Bible and stories of saints show miraculous events occuring so the good can hear the Gospel when ordi[na]ry means are impossible.
And such miraculous events negate Sacramental Theology how? And how is traditional Sacramental Theology any less or more miraculous?

Quote:The Church has stated that only those that possess the Catholic Faith can enter heaven. This is not "Feeneyism" its Catholicism. Look it up.
Where do I look it up then? The Church defined that the Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are necessary for salvation, not that every article of our Catholic Faith absolutely to known by the intellect, otherwise those adults who do not to know one or several articles just because they weren't taught them could not enter Heaven either. You are sounding like a "sola fide" heretic. We are Catholics, not Protestants. We believe that Grace alone is necessary for salvation. This is the Faith of the holy Council of Trent.
Reply
#6

Quote:If we can call ourselves "traditionalists" then I can call them "Feeneyites".
Big difference, admitted by you just now. You call yourself a Traditionalist. You call them "Feeneyites" and they despise the term.


Quote:The term is most fitting since they are self-professed followers of Fr. Feeney's opinions
Yes and they do not like the term at all. Show some courtesy for fellow Catholics. 

Quote: As if they objectively aren't?
*Groan* Must we go through this again? Must I continually point out that Fr. Feeney died in the Church as his Order continues to today is affirmed by local ordinaries and the Vatican? Does being a "Trad' mean you have the authority to judge who's in the Church or not?
  
Quote:I only judge that their opinions are erroneous and the Church's hierarchy right before the brakeout of heresy backs me up.
You judge the Church's herirachy? Before what breakeout of heresy? And what backs you up? Please clarify what you mean by this muddles sentence. 
Quote:Only according to their own erroneous private interpretations but not Holy Mother Church's infallible interpretation.
The pronouncements of Church dogma are to be taken by the very words they mean. Further interpritation is not needed. That's why the Church said what she said in the first place.
 
Quote: That is not a Dogma so no one has to believe it. It may be so but it is not defined as a revealed truth by any Pope.

Neither is BOD or BOB being salvific. So how can one judge those that don't hold as such to be heretics?


 

Quote:No one is saying He is. Are you not deceiving people though by insuating that others are. How much more blasphemous is it to insuate that God is bound by our intellectual knowledge?
You could make such an argument of the Church left the question opened. But she didn't. She didn't say baptism is the best remedy for salvation that we know of. She said it was it was completely necessary. No distinctions or exceptions are made. So why should any one speculate further?
 
Quote:And such miraculous events negate Sacramental Theology how? And how is traditional Sacramental Theology any less or more miraculous?
Huh?

 
Quote:
Where do I look it up then? The Church defined that the Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are necessary for salvation, not that every article of our Catholic Faith absolutely to known by the intellect, otherwise those adults who do not to know one or several articles just because they weren't taught them could not enter Heaven either. You are sounding like a "sola fide" heretic. We are Catholics, not Protestants. We believe that Grace alone is necessary for salvation. This is the Faith of the holy Council of Trent.
And you are sounding like an inept fool who has never read any document of the Church conerning salvation but believes he has the right to judge others of said issue.

[*]“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
  • “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
  • “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.
  • Can. 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional , that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.
  • Can. 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,” let him be anathema. 

     

     

  • Reply
    #7
    didishroom Wrote:
    Quote:If we can call ourselves "traditionalists" then I can call them "Feeneyites".
    Big difference, admitted by you just now. You call yourself a Traditionalist. You call them "Feeneyites" and they despise the term.
    Actually I don't call myself a traditionalist and I don't really like the term. I follow Tradition though and therefore the term fits and they (and you?) follow Fr. Feeney therefore the term fits. "If the shoe fits...".

    Quote:
    Quote:The term is most fitting since they are self-professed followers of Fr. Feeney's opinions
    Yes and they do not like the term at all. Show some courtesy for fellow Catholics.
    It doesn't matter if they don't like the term, that is what they are. And telling the truth is courtesy.

    Quote:
    Quote:As if they objectively aren't?
    *Groan* Must we go through this again? Must I continually point out that Fr. Feeney died in the Church as his Order continues to today is affirmed by local ordinaries and the Vatican?
    That means nothing as to the objective truth of his personal opinion which is in fact an objective error. You can die in the Church in error over non-dogmatically defined truth/doctrine. Some local Ordinaries, former or other bishops also affirm pro-murder groups like A Call to Action, so approval does not equate to indefectibility?

    Quote:Does being a "Trad' mean you have the authority to judge who's in the Church or not?
    No. Our God-given human intellect does, for instance, we know by reason alone that Lutherans are not formally in the Catholic Church. Also reason alone dictates if a PRIEST denies the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception that he is no longer inside the Church at least materially.

    Quote:
    Quote:I only judge that their opinions are erroneous and the Church's hierarchy right before the brakeout of heresy backs me up.
    You judge the Church's herirachy?
    As our Lord said:
    Matthew 23:23 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and have left the weightier things of the law; judgment, and mercy, and faith. These things you ought to have done, and not to leave those undone.
    To judge a person's actions is not to judge his will. "By their fruits you shalt know them."

    Quote:Before what breakeout of heresy? And what backs you up? Please clarify what you mean by this muddles sentence.
    The breakout of all the rampant heresies of liberalism and relativism and indifference toward Holy Religion in our Holy Mother the Catholic Church. If you don't know about this then just hang it up or get check out your average Parish.

    Quote:
    Quote:Only according to their own erroneous private interpretations but not Holy Mother Church's infallible interpretation.
    The pronouncements of Church dogma are to be taken by the very words they mean. Further interpritation is not needed. That's why the Church said what she said in the first place.
    And you go against the dogmatic interpretation of Holy Mother Church. That is what you in your pride refuse to accept because then you would have to give up your heresy and sins. The Holy and Infallible Council of Trent is the one that defined that desire is enough for the Grace of the Sacraments and that Justification is Sanctifying Grace and that without Sanctifying State there is no Justification. That is why all the Saints of the Old Testament are called Just Men in the Old Testament. They are in Heaven because they died in God's Grace which enabled them to wait until Christ's Redemption.

    Quote:
    Quote:That is not a Dogma so no one has to believe it. It may be so but it is not defined as a revealed truth by any Pope.
    Neither is BOD or BOB being salvific. So how can one judge those that don't hold as such to be heretics?
    Actually they are by their very definition, because by definition they are the Sacramental Graces of the Sacrament of Baptism, which is includes Sanctifying Grace which alone is salvific. Whether the existence of such means is defined as divinely revealed truth yet I cannot yet say from my studying but they are reasonable conclusions.

    Quote:
    Quote:No one is saying He is. Are you not deceiving people though by insuating that others are. How much more blasphemous is it to insuate that God is bound by our intellectual knowledge?
    You could make such an argument of the Church left the question opened. But she didn't. She didn't say baptism is the best remedy for salvation that we know of. She said it was it was completely necessary. No distinctions or exceptions are made. So why should any one speculate further?
    She say Baptism, ie Cleansing, from sin, not the Sacrament of Baptism. Baptism by Blood and Baptism by the Holy Ghost are Baptism. Get it? What is so hard to understand about that? You have been deceived, my brother. The Church only left open the debate about whether this was publicly revealed, not whether or not it is Catholic doctrine. It is and always will be a matter of Catholic theology because the Church Herself says She cannot judge on the matter of the interior forum in Her Divine Faith. It is impossible to judge the interior forum of another and therefore you don't know if they had Grace or not at death. 

    Quote:
    Quote:And such miraculous events negate Sacramental Theology how? And how is traditional Sacramental Theology any less or more miraculous?
    Huh?
    St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Alphonsus Liguori, etc, etc, etc? Their sacramental theology always allowed for desire for a Sacrament to receive Its effect without actually receiving the Sacrament. As it seem like you don't know what I'm talking about, please study sacramental theology before you reply to me as I do not have time for willful ignorance. I suggest the Angelic Doctor's "Catecheticlal Instructions" on the sacraments in general.

    Quote:
    Quote:Where do I look it up then? The Church defined that the Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are necessary for salvation, not that every article of our Catholic Faith absolutely to known by the intellect, otherwise those adults who do not to know one or several articles just because they weren't taught them could not enter Heaven either. You are sounding like a "sola fide" heretic. We are Catholics, not Protestants. We believe that Grace alone is necessary for salvation. This is the Faith of the holy Council of Trent.
    And you are sounding like an inept fool who has never read any document of the Church con[c]erning salvation but believes he has the right to judge others of said issue. [*]“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
  • “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
  • “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.
  • Can. 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional , that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.
  • Can. 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,” let him be anathema.
  • You privately interpret these dogmatic definitions to suit your error. As heretics are wont to do, you overemphasize one truth of our Faith over another. You fail to understand that any man can enter the Catholic Church even at the very last moment of his life by desiring Baptism and to know the truth and to do what is necessary for salvation but only with the help of God's Grace. Salvation is possible (though not always probable) at any moment before death for men who have never entered Holy Mother Church. Also do I need to remind you that the Catholic Church though a truly visible and organized perfect society is spiritual? As the Second Vatican Council infallibly taught in Chapter 2 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium:
    14 ...Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.
    16....Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*).....
    I warn you. Do not reject Holy Mother Church's interpretations of Her Sacred Dogmas!

    EDITED FOR CLARITY.
    Reply
    #8
    Quote:Actually I don't call myself a traditionalist and I don't really like the term. I follow Tradition though and therefore the term fits and they (and you?) follow Fr. Feeney therefore the term fits. "If the shoe fits...".
    How about you understand the proper use of pronouns? First you say, "we call ourselves "traditionalists." Then you say, "I don't call myself a "traditonalist." When you say "our" you are including yourself.

    So you correct me and say you don't think of yourself as a traditionalist and don't like the name( though you admit you follow tradition). But in the same statement, you disregard the same courtesy to the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, even though I gave the exact reasons for not calling them "Feeneyites" as you gave to me for calling yourself a "traditionalist." Are you seriously aware of the contradictions you just made?  

     
    Quote:It doesn't matter if they don't like the term, that is what they are. And telling the truth is courtesy.
    But you don't like being called a "traditionalist" and you correct me when I refer to you as one, even after you originally called yourself one.


     
    Quote:That means nothing as to the objective truth of his personal opinion which is in fact an objective error. You can die in the Church in error over non-dogmatically defined truth/doctrine. Some local Ordinaries, former or other bishops also affirm pro-murder groups like A Call to Action, so approval does not equate to indefectibility?
    So you are admitting that Fr. Feeney's theology was his personal opinion and that BOD was never infallibly defined by the Church?

    And if so you cannot compare that to this A Call to Action if they, as you say, do support abortion as the Church makes no compromise on the subject.

    St. Thomas Aquinas died beliving error(denial of the Immaculate Conception) but remained within the Church, as the dogma had not yet been defined and he was free to accept/reject it.

    And since you seem to admit that BOD is NOT infallibly defined then Fr. Feeny, like Thomas Aquinas, had the right to deny it, unless the Extraordinary Magesterium defines it as an article of Faith(which I don't believe will happen.)
     
    Quote:No. Our God-given human intellect does, for instance, we know by reason alone that Lutherans are not formally in the Catholic Church. Also reason alone dictates if a PRIEST denies the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception that he is no longer inside the Church at least materially.
     Hmmm..I'm not sure what you're getting at. First off, if any Catholic willfully denies the Immaculate Conception when they know the Church's position on it then they are guilty of heresy. Dogmas must be believed by all, not just priest, so I'm not sure why you focused on priests there. We know Lutherans are not in the Church because the Church has delcared it so. She has never did that with the Fr. Feeney or his Order. And as I pointed out earlier, the Vatican(not just local Ordinaries) has affirmed Fr.'s and his Order's status in the Church.

     
    Quote:To judge a person's actions is not to judge his will. "By their fruits you shalt know them."
    And whose fruits are we referring to?
     
    Quote:The breakout of all the rampant heresies of liberalism and relativism and indifference toward Holy Religion in our Holy Mother the Catholic Church. If you don't know about this then just hang it up or get check out your average Parish.
    Before Vatican II and the unleash of modernist theology and false ecumenism in the open, Fr. Feeney was taking on the liberals and publically attacking Inter-Faith meetings. Yes, false ecumenism was not born at Vatican II. It just had a different name and was more subtle but it was there. Fr. was told to drop the doctrine of EENS(there was no discussion of BOD or BOB at this tiem) for it lead to "bigotry." Now if that isn't liberalism, I don't know what is.


     
    Quote:And you go against the dogmatic interpretation of Holy Mother Church. That is what you in your pride refuse to accept because then you would have to give up your heresy and sins.
    So wait a minute..earlier you established that BOD as being salvific in the place of BOW is not infallibly defined by the Church, but now because of my denial of a non-dogmatic opinion, I am a heretic and prideful. I hope you understand the gravity of what you're doing here. I await an apology and retraction of this unwarranted accusation which disagrees with what you wrote just a few paragraphs above.



    Quote:The Holy and Infallible Council of Trent is the one that defined that desire is enough for the Grace of the Sacraments and that Justification is Sanctifying Grace and that without Sanctifying State there is no Justification. That is why all the Saints of the Old Testament are called Just Men in the Old Testament. They are in Heaven because they died in God's Grace which enabled them to wait until Christ's Redemption.
    Before you start accusing people of heresy(oopps..too late!) you should understand what they actually believe first.
    Neither Fr. Feeney, the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary nor myself have I denied anything which you have just listed.


     
    Quote:Actually they are by their very definition, because by definition they are the Sacramental Graces of the Sacrament of Baptism, which is includes Sanctifying Grace which alone is salvific. Whether the existence of such means is defined as divinely revealed truth yet I cannot yet say from my studying but they are reasonable conclusions.
    No where in documents of the EO will you find anything that says grace alone is necessary for salvation.

    And your last statement is showing the fallacy of your whole argument.
    At first you admit BOD as never been infallible defined.
    Then I'm a prideful heretic for not accepting it.
    But now you say you don't know if it a divinely revealed truth.

    You display your ignorance and lack of ability to be conscice in your arguments. Then you admit from your own words you are not sure whether what you are advocating for is a dogma of the faith, that you only believe it is true based on your own logical conclusions, but yet have no problem with mudslinging and accusing people of heresy.

    So which is it? I don't think you even know and whatever answer I get will just contradict a previous statement of yours.  


     
    Quote:She say Baptism, ie Cleansing, from sin, not the Sacrament of Baptism. Baptism by Blood and Baptism by the Holy Ghost are Baptism. Get it? What is so hard to understand about that? You have been deceived, my brother.
    Forgive my bluntness, brother, but try reading the actual documents themselves instead of adding your own words and interpritations to Trent.

    If anyone says that the SACRAMENTS of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous: let him be anathema. Trent.

    Holy BAPTISM holds the first place among all the SACRAMENTS because it is the gateway to the spiritual life...and since death entered the universe through the first man, "unless we are reborn of water and Spirit, we cannot," as the Truth says, enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Council of Florence.
     
    The problem is that you are assuming that BOD and BOB already exist so that when the Church says, "baptism", she is not referring exclusively to the sacrament of water. This is false and she gives no implication that when referring to baptism she means something other than the sacrament. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Trent and other such documents mean something else.



    Quote:The Church only left open the debate about whether this was publicly revealed, not whether or not it is Catholic doctrine.
    Where did you get this from? Dogma comes from public Revelation not private revelation. If it was not a doctrine of the Apostles then it is something we cannot be sure of either way, and only God knows.


    Quote:It is and always will be a matter of Catholic theology because the Church Herself says She cannot judge on the matter of the interior forum in Her Divine Faith. It is impossible to judge the interior forum of another and therefore you don't know if they had Grace or not at death.
    By this logic the Church cannot say that anyone goes to hell. But she does.

    We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calaminity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the Elect. Pope Benedict XIV Acerbe Nimis

    Neither Fr. Feeney or his Order said specific people were in hell. It's true we can never know what is in someone's heart, but at the same time we cannot deny dogma. It is the Holy Spirit, not men, Who is declaring that all must have the Catholic Faith and be baptized into the Church in order to enter heaven.  

    Quote:  
    St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Alphonsus Liguori, etc, etc, etc? Their sacramental theology always allowed for desire for a Sacrament to receive Its effect without actually receiving the Sacrament. As it seem like you don't know what I'm talking about, please study sacramental theology before you reply to me as I do not have time for willful ignorance. I suggest the Angelic Doctor's "Catecheticlal Instructions" on the sacraments in general.
    I showed confusion because you were not clear in what you were saying.
    I am well aware of what these men wrote on this matter. While saints are great for explaining dogma they do not define dogma nor determine what is or not dogma.

    "The Church has never accepted even the most holy and most eminent Doctor, and does not now accept even a single one of them, as the principal source of truth. The Church certainly considers Thomas and Augustine great Doctors, and she accords them the highest praise; but she
    recognizes infallibility only in the inspired authors of the Sacred
    Scriptures. By divine mandate, the interpreter and guardian of the Sacred
    Scriptures, depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church
    alone is the entrance to salvation; she alone, by herself, and under the
    protection and guidance of the Holy Ghost, is the source of truth."

    Pope Pius XII
    Allocution to the Gregorian University, Oct. 17, 1953

    Quote:And you are sounding like an inept fool who has never read any document of the Church con[c]erning salvation but believes he has the right to judge others of said issue.
    I think I should be the one saying that. I think the fact that I just posted three infallible statements concerning salvation proves that I'v read a document on salvation.
    If you're going to start calling people "fools" you should be careful what you write first, as I've already pointed out numerous contradictions you've made.


    Quote:You privately interpret these dogmatic definitions to suit your error. As heretics are wont to do, you overemphasize one truth of our Faith over another.
    How have I privately interprited them? I take them at face value! And really? Another accusation of heresy? If you do not desist I will report your behavior to the administrators. I'm all for discussion and arguing but no matter how rude I amy have been in other posts I've never actually called someone a heretic. That is unexcusable.

    And I think if anyone is overemphasizing one truth over another it would be you. You seem to overemphasize the power of grace itself and God's love that you ignore the Church's declaration on the necessity of the sacraments themselves.

    I exclude no doctrine of Faith.



    Quote:You fail to understand that any man can enter the Catholic Church even at the very last moment of his life by desiring Baptism and to know the truth and to do what is necessary for salvation but only with the help of God's Grace. Salvation is possible (though not always probable) at any moment before death for men who have never entered Holy Mother Church.
    I do fully accept that due to God's grace and love, anyone can enter the Church any moment before death, but now how you say so.

    Only those are to be considered real members of the Church who have been regenerated in the waters of Baptism, and profess the True Faith...Consequently, as in the real assembly of the faithful there can be one Body, one Lord and one Baptism. Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corpis
     
    The Catholic Church, is the kingdom of Christ on earth..The gospels present this kingdom as one which men prepare to enter by peance, and cannot actually enter except by Faith and by baptism,which though an  external rite, signifies and prodcues an interior regeneration. Pope Bl. Pius IX Quas Primas

    See? These two popes make it clear it's only by baptism that we can enter heaven. Notice they do not refer to an ambiguous non-sacramental baptism which you mentioned, but the waters of Baptism and an external rite.  


    Quote:  
    Also do I need to remind you that the Catholic Church though a truly visible and organized perfect society is spiritual?
    Yes, but there is only visible membership in the Church.  



    Quote:As the Second Vatican Council infallibly taught in Chapter 2 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium:
    14 ...Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.
    16....Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*).....
    There is no proof that Vatican II was infallible and we have this from the mouths of the very popes who presided over it.

    Though I will also add, that while ambiguous I see no evidence that Vatican II is heretical and even if it so were I have no authority to judge it so.

    That being said, I am fully aware of this passage in this Council. So are The Slaves and none of them disagree with it.

    The problem with this passage is that it does NOT say that a person can be saved without baptism. It doesn't say exactly how this person will be saved, so if this is reconciled with the rest of dogmatic defintionts then we must assume that they are saved by baptism.

    The second part, which you did not highlight, shows what it truly means.
     
    Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
     
    This passage affirms that God does not deny us what we need to get to heaven. If the Church says we need baptism than this shows that God will give us baptism or at least the opportunity to receive it(whether we receive it or not is up to us). Also look closely as to what it says: have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God. And their "good" but ignorant lives are seen as a preparation for the Gospel.
     
    If anything Lumen Gentium affirms my position here, not contradict it.


    Quote:I warn you. Do not reject Holy Mother Church's interpretations of Her Sacred Dogmas!
    Try learning them yourself.

    Reply
    #9
    Quote:Originally Posted by didishroom

    Quote:Originally Posted by GodFirst
    And you are sounding like an inept fool who has never read any document of the Church con[c]erning salvation but believes he has the right to judge others of said issue.

    I think I should be the one saying that.

    If I might have a quick word here... Why can't we conduct a debate without calling each other fools?

    I don't mean to accuse anyone of sin, but consider Matthew 5:

    Quote:And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    We as Catholics should know better.
    Reply
    #10
    Good point. I apologize. I'll try not to stoop to the level of name calling. Though after growing up with six siblings that's a tough habit to break.
    Reply




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