The Church and fascism
#31
Quote:No. What is, is. It doesn't matter if people believe or not.

That response could just as easily come from a Hindu or a Muslim. You've made no argument. It isn't a valid point to be made in temporal affairs. Under that standard, anything can be justified.
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#32
Quote:That response could just as easily come from a Hindu or a Muslim. You've made no argument. It isn't a valid point to be made in temporal affairs. Under that standard, anything can be justified.
This is a Catholic forum. I don't see your point. It is not my intention to prove anything and thus, I'm not trying.
Under a Catholic state, justification would not be needed. Although the articles of faith can be logically determined, revelation is superior.
I don't need to prove to a baby that the stove is hot to pull them away from it. 
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#33
But before you go into the secular world to pass laws on the basis of Catholic belief, you must convince the secular world. Americans are not convinced, and that is why secular law is based on "flesh and property", i.e., the things Americans all can agree are real.

Under a Catholic state, sure, revelation is superior. But in the United States, the vast majority of the people do not believe Catholics when they make a claim to revelation, and therefore do not base the law on such revelation. There's also no concensus on believing that Mohammed received any special revelation, or that the Hindus have received any special revelation, so Sharia law or the Hindu caste system don't hold weight in the USA.

The only things that are indisputably agreed upon are those things which are empirical, and that's why American law is based on those things.
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#34
JonathanCid Wrote:The only things that are indisputably agreed upon are those things which are empirical, and that's why American law is based on those things.

American law is based on which politicians got paid off and by whom.
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#35
Our Lady of the Fasces, anyone? [Image: laff.gif]


[Image: madonnadelfasciogrande.jpg]

Quote:Santa Rosa Convent [in Predappio] contains the "Madonna del Libro" ( Our Lady of the Book), a 15th Century canvas from the Tuscan school, and the "Madonna del Fascio" "Our Lady of the Fasces". The latter is a large ceramic mosaic in azuleos style created by the Portuguese artist Da Silva in the 1920s. It depicts a religious scene surrounded by lictors and monarchic symbols.

http://www.comune.predappio.fo.it/citta/preding.html
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#36
JonathanCid Wrote:The only things that are indisputably agreed upon are those things which are empirical, and that's why American law is based on those things.

What?!?!
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#37
American law and government is heavy laden with and influenced by post-Enlightenment secular rationalist thinking. Corruption aside, the American system was influenced heavily by rationalist, anti-clerical, post-Enlightenment thought.
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#38
Quote:American law and government is heavy laden with and influenced by post-Enlightenment secular rationalist thinking. Corruption aside, the American system was influenced heavily by rationalist, anti-clerical, post-Enlightenment thought.
Not it wasn't. Rationalist and anti-clerical? It was a teenager who thought it knows better than its parents. The "Enlightenment" replaces Truth will feelings and has strayed far from its origins while the Church has remained unchanged.
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#39
Quote:Not it wasn't. Rationalist and anti-clerical? It was a teenager who thought it knows better than its parents. The "Enlightenment" replaces Truth will feelings and has strayed far from its origins while the Church has remained unchanged.

Yes. Rationalist and anti-clerical. Post-Enlightenment thinking found the beliefs of the Church "repulsive" and "superstitious". The focus was placed on pure rationalism. And that distaste for the Church was heavily anti-clerical. We saw it in the French Revolution, and we saw it in the American Revolution.

"A government of reason is better than one of force." - Thomas Jefferson

The same man who said:

"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to liberty."

There was nothing about feeling. The problem is that you want to group all of modern society and say the whole thing is a product of the Enlightenment. This is a lie. Enlightenment and rationalist thought holds that truth is absolute, and leans towards naturalism. Most people today are relativistic and lean heavily in favor of supernaturalism. How you can even attempt to reconcile those two is beyond me.

"The Enlightenment" has not strayed from its origins, because "the Enlightenment" is not an institution. I don't understand that last sentence. Relativism/anti-rationalism are most certainly not anything of the Enlightenment. It's the antithesis of the Enlightenment.
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#40
Quote:There was nothing about feeling. The problem is that you want to group all of modern society and say the whole thing is a product of the Enlightenment. This is a lie. Enlightenment and rationalist thought holds that truth is absolute, and leans towards naturalism. Most people today are relativistic and lean heavily in favor of supernaturalism. How you can even attempt to reconcile those two is beyond me.

Don't presume to say what I'm trying to do. I didn't say the whole thing was a product of the Enlightenment. 
The Church obviously teaches the supernatural, but is definately not relativistic. There is no "reconciliation" needed. God is Truth and eternal. 
Quote:"The Enlightenment" has not strayed from its origins, because "the Enlightenment" is not an institution. I don't understand that last sentence. Relativism/anti-rationalism are most certainly not anything of the Enlightenment. It's the antithesis of the Enlightenment.

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you not know anything about the Church? 
That is what I meant. The Enlightenment is not an institution but an ever changing collection of ideas which are like leaves on a pond. The Church is an impenetrable pillar of Truth.
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