Licit to attend weekly NO Masses with abuses?
#21
(04-17-2009, 07:44 PM)tradmaverick Wrote: I understand you believe certain things about the New Mass, and I want to say something to you in charity and with the fullest respect for you and youre very commendable desire to receive the Eucharist daily, I think you should do a bit of reading into the New Mass, try googling the Ottaviani Intervention, or read the book the Great sacrilege, or anything by Michael Davies on the New Mass. There is plenty of evidence available to show that not only is the New Mass illicit, but it is immoral, and is indeed is a sin to attend it. It is not so much a matter of the abuses that (do indeed) go on during a new mass, it is the prayers of the New Mass itself (and the lack therof).

Again I dont mean to offend or cause a fight or something heated, but in fraternal charity and with the greatest respect for you I have to point that out.

God bless
Tradmav

I've read the Ottaviani Intervention and while I agree with the points made in the study, I do not recall the study ever saying the new liturgy is illicit or immoral or a sin to attend. Can you point me to where Ottaviani's study stated these conclusions? I'm not asking about Davies or others. I am asking about Cardinal Ottaviani's study. The points in the study are valid and reveal why the New Mass is not as fitting and some of the prayers emphasis secondary aspects of the reality of the Sacrament while downplaying the primary aspects but I cannot remember it concluding to attend is immoral or a sin or that the liturgy is/would be illicit.

Your view, dear brother, is not the view of the Church and while the New Mass is indeed inferior, it is extreme to say it is immoral or a sin.

My perspective is that I attempt to find the best New Mass I can attend during the week. The Oratory here has a pretty good one that I can endure. Look around, find a more solemn and better New Mass to attend. There has to be some better option for you.

Pax Christi tecum.
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#22
Fr. Z has an interesting take on this very issue today:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/04/quaeritur...not-a-tlm/

From a reader:

    Recently, after reading this post on traditional Catholicism, I posted the link on Facebook and got into a debate with a few friends of mine.  Basically, it boiled down to the following three questions:  [there were three questions, but the second was the important one…]

    2. Whether some people are dispensed from fulfilling their Sunday obligation at a Novus Ordo mass by the idea of "spiritual danger" attached to going to that rite.

    A couple of my friends say yes, a couple say no.  What do you think?

I think that God cannot be fooled.

If people who are obliged are truly impeded from attending Holy Mass on a day of obligation, then they don’t sin by not attending.

There can be physical impediments (e.g., the bridge was washed out in a flood), or impediments of health (e.g., too ill to go out) or "psychic" impediments (e.g., an old person is afraid to fall on ice in the winter) or circumstantial impediments (e.g., you are traveling on a close schedule and have no idea where to go), etc.

But there are other kinds of moral impediments.  For example, say you are part of a small parish and something really bad happened with the priest or parishioners and the thou
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#23
Personally, I think that the use of glass or crystal vessels is among the worst abuses.  It puts the Blessed Sacrament in direct danger, and is therefore not something that can or should be swept under the rug.

My grandmother goes to a NO parish (my mother has invited her to join us, but she refuses).  This Easter, after the chalice and crystal thing that holds the host were purified, one of the "Eucharistic Ministers" dropped the chalice and it shattered into a million pieces.

That could have happened with Our Lord in that glass vessel. 

Not a minor abuse, IMO.
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#24
(04-22-2009, 10:24 AM)Scipio_a Wrote:
(04-17-2009, 07:30 PM)Credo Wrote: Go.

As such things go, those abuses seem rather minor. It would be a shame to withdraw yourself form the daily assembly those reasons. You may wish to bring your concerns to the priest after a few years, once you get to know the man.

Yeah, go get your cookie with credo. And all the while you can enraged your faith and that of those around you (what a bonus!).

You would be best to never set foot in a NO fellowship or attend an NO fellowship service.  Only a Novus Ordinarian like Credo would suggest it.  I mean if you want to attend a pro service you might as well find one of the older variety where the folks are more fun to be around.  After all, it's about fellowship.

That's over the top.  You don't have to talk like this to get your opinion across.  This isn't the theological debate subforum.  And, the "Newchurch" "cookie" stuff you use all the time has gotten old.  This isn't Traditio.

You get three days off from posting and you can decide if you want to discuss things or lambast people.  Further, the Fr. Moderator-speak has got to stop.    If the former, please conform your tone and words to that approach upon your return to posting..
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#25
The way they manhandle Holy Communion in the local NO parishes is not reconcilable with the Roman Catholic faith.  Unless the Roman Catholic faith encourages dropped Communion, reserving the Blessed Sacrament in glass cookie jars, carrying Communion back to your chair, and possible excommunication reserved to the Pope.
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#26
(04-22-2009, 04:21 PM)Tiny Wrote: The way they manhandle Holy Communion in the local NO parishes is not reconcilable with the Roman Catholic faith.  Unless the Roman Catholic faith encourages dropped Communion, reserving the Blessed Sacrament in glass cookie jars, carrying Communion back to your chair, and possible excommunication reserved to the Pope.

Come on now, you know that is a crass mis-characterization. First, most of the faithful do not "manhandle" Holy Communion. Very many orthodox people in the state of grace receive reverently and much love for Our Lord. Just because they receive in the hand does not mean they are abusing the Most Blessed Sacrament. That is extreme folly. Is it the best practice? No. Should it be stopped? Yes. Is it a sacrilege or an offense against Our Lord in and of itself? No. Most parishes do not use "glass cookie jars" and for all the weird parishes I've been in, I've never seen one of your "glass cookie jars." Do not paint this picture that is simply false, that every Novus Ordo parish is doing the extreme things you mentioned. I know of many reverent Novus Ordo Masses and while I prefer the TLM, I will go to a good Novus Ordo during the week. I pray for the day the TLM returns to pride of place but until then I will never believe that the Novus Ordo, in and of itself, is some horrendous, illicit, immoral liturgy. That is contrary to the mind of the Church.

Pax Christi tecum.
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#27
(04-22-2009, 02:07 PM)CarmeliteAtHeart Wrote:
(04-17-2009, 07:44 PM)tradmaverick Wrote: I understand you believe certain things about the New Mass, and I want to say something to you in charity and with the fullest respect for you and youre very commendable desire to receive the Eucharist daily, I think you should do a bit of reading into the New Mass, try googling the Ottaviani Intervention, or read the book the Great sacrilege, or anything by Michael Davies on the New Mass. There is plenty of evidence available to show that not only is the New Mass illicit, but it is immoral, and is indeed is a sin to attend it. It is not so much a matter of the abuses that (do indeed) go on during a new mass, it is the prayers of the New Mass itself (and the lack therof).

Again I dont mean to offend or cause a fight or something heated, but in fraternal charity and with the greatest respect for you I have to point that out.

God bless
Tradmav

I've read the Ottaviani Intervention and while I agree with the points made in the study, I do not recall the study ever saying the new liturgy is illicit or immoral or a sin to attend. Can you point me to where Ottaviani's study stated these conclusions? I'm not asking about Davies or others. I am asking about Cardinal Ottaviani's study. The points in the study are valid and reveal why the New Mass is not as fitting and some of the prayers emphasis secondary aspects of the reality of the Sacrament while downplaying the primary aspects but I cannot remember it concluding to attend is immoral or a sin or that the liturgy is/would be illicit.

Your view, dear brother, is not the view of the Church and while the New Mass is indeed inferior, it is extreme to say it is immoral or a sin.

My perspective is that I attempt to find the best New Mass I can attend during the week. The Oratory here has a pretty good one that I can endure. Look around, find a more solemn and better New Mass to attend. There has to be some better option for you.

Pax Christi tecum.

Firstly in response to your question for references in the critique that states that it is sinful to attend the New Mass. I have underlined for effect and emphasis.



1 We have limited ourselves above to a short study of the Novus Ordo where it deviates most seriously from the theology of the Catholic Mass. Our observations touch upon deviations which are typical. To prepare a complete study of all the pitfalls, dangers, and psychologically and spiritually destructive elements the new rite contains, whether in texts, rubrics, or instructions, would be a vast undertaking.

2 It is obvious that the New Order of Mass has no intention of presenting the Faith taught by the Council of Trent. But it is to this Faith that the Catholic conscience is bound forever. Thus, with the promulgation of the New Order of Mass, the true Catholic is faced with a tragic need to choose. (most important reference)

3 St. Pius V had the Roman Missal drawn up (as the present Apostolic Constitution now recalls) as an instrument of unity among Catholics. In conformity with the injunctions of the Council of Trent, the Missal was to exclude all dangers, either to liturgical worship or to the faith itself, then threatened by the Protestant Revolt. The grave situation fully justified--and even rendered prophetic--the saintly Pontiff's solemn warning given in 1570 at the end of the Bull promulgating his Missal:

    "Should anyone presume to tamper with this, let him know that he shall incur the wrath of God Almighty and His holy Apostles Peter and Paul".

(Easily extended to anyone who participates in this 'tampering' with full knowledge of how dangerous it is!!)


....Clearly if you participate in "pitfalls, dangers, and psychologically and spiritually destructive elements the new rite contains"  -youre hardly doing something good are you? Whilst the word sin is not said, it doesnt take a genius to figure out the implication!! Ive underlined the most important reference about the need to choose. Funny how they didnt say what you have to choose  -they implied it!!

As to what you said above "Your view, dear brother, is not the view of the Church", clearly it is not the view of the institutional Church or rather certain members of the Church, including to but not limited to modernists.

But is most certainly the view of the spotless bride of Christ - eternal Rome, the Church of Christ, her infallible teachings and definitions and most importantly very much the mind of St.Pius V and his quo primum.


Anyways I apologize if I am hijacking the thread and I will post no more on this issue(PM me if you want to debate more or as Quis said take it to the theological debate section, its not really fair to take this guys topic over - i have an awful habit of doing that!), im not judging anyone or their subjective opinons, Im merely responding to a question asked and I do not intend any offense whatsoever, these are my opinions and they just so happen to be the opinions of the good Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci, as well as the opinions of many traditionalist, including but again not limited to the Society of St.Pius X.
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#28
(04-22-2009, 04:50 PM)CarmeliteAtHeart Wrote:
(04-22-2009, 04:21 PM)Tiny Wrote: The way they manhandle Holy Communion in the local NO parishes is not reconcilable with the Roman Catholic faith.  Unless the Roman Catholic faith encourages dropped Communion, reserving the Blessed Sacrament in glass cookie jars, carrying Communion back to your chair, and possible excommunication reserved to the Pope.

Come on now, you know that is a crass mis-characterization. First, most of the faithful do not "manhandle" Holy Communion. Very many orthodox people in the state of grace receive reverently and much love for Our Lord. Just because they receive in the hand does not mean they are abusing the Most Blessed Sacrament. That is extreme folly. Is it the best practice? No. Should it be stopped? Yes. Is it a sacrilege or an offense against Our Lord in and of itself? No. Most parishes do not use "glass cookie jars" and for all the weird parishes I've been in, I've never seen one of your "glass cookie jars." Do not paint this picture that is simply false, that every Novus Ordo parish is doing the extreme things you mentioned. I know of many reverent Novus Ordo Masses and while I prefer the TLM, I will go to a good Novus Ordo during the week. I pray for the day the TLM returns to pride of place but until then I will never believe that the Novus Ordo, in and of itself, is some horrendous, illicit, immoral liturgy. That is contrary to the mind of the Church.

Pax Christi tecum.

I'm afraid you're the one with the myopic view of the Novus Ordo; nowhere did I say that Novus Ordo Parishes everywhere manhandle Holy Communion; I said that the local ones did.  Do you want to come to my city and prove me wrong about matters I've seen in the past 2 weeks?

Maybe 5% of parishes are reform of the reform minded, 5% parishes are far out there progressive parishes that are still progressing, the other 90% of parishes have been cast adrift with no direction since the 70s or 80s.  Perhaps if your diocese was a vanguard of conservatism during the 70s and 80s, these abandoned parishes would be ok (adrift with a conservative bent)

And who cares if most orthodox people receive reverently if just one person walks back to their pew with Holy Communion? Not withstanding the fact that in the traditional rite there would be ablutions or at least an ablutions cup for those who touch Holy Communion; now everyone touches with their hands, indicating a fundamental flaw.
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#29

Quote:To me the Sacred Species (I forgot to add the Sacred Hosts are kept in glass too) deserve proper vessels. I may not be well versed as many on here about liturgical matters, but to me that seems kind of big.

This just my opinion, but perhaps it would be a good thing for you to help remove Our Lord from those improper vessels by receiving Him into your heart and soul in Communion. What do you think?

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#30
(04-22-2009, 07:06 PM)Sinner Wrote:
Quote:To me the Sacred Species (I forgot to add the Sacred Hosts are kept in glass too) deserve proper vessels. I may not be well versed as many on here about liturgical matters, but to me that seems kind of big.

This just my opinion, but perhaps it would be a good thing for you to help remove Our Lord from those improper vessels by receiving Him into your heart and soul in Communion. What do you think?

Humorous - if intended sarcastically. If not, then why don't we all meet at a black mass and receive so that no Hosts can be chewed up and spit upon the ground by pagans? The ends never justify the means.
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