Licit to attend weekly NO Masses with abuses?
#61
What happened to all the gilded (and solid!) chalices?  When I was a kid, they used to lock them up in a safe in the rectory.

I'd hate to think they've been purloined and melted down for $$s when they replaced them with tupperware.  Someone tell me I'm wrong.
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#62
(04-24-2009, 12:08 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: What happened to all the gilded (and solid!) chalices?  When I was a kid, they used to lock them up in a safe in the rectory.

I'd hate to think they've been purloined and melted down for $$s when they replaced them with tupperware.  Someone tell me I'm wrong.

There are still some around but unfortunately there are also a lot on E-bay. :( >:(

Edit to correct speling.
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#63
(04-23-2009, 11:56 AM)Sinner Wrote:
(04-23-2009, 10:06 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(04-23-2009, 12:52 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(04-22-2009, 10:35 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: Would it concern you if you weren't even sure whether or not the priest even believed in the Real Presence? My doubts about the priest's intention to effect the Sacrifice of the Mass would be layed to rest the moment he began to treat the Body of Blood of Christ like he actually believed it was the Body and Blood of Christ.

It would be his sin and his alone if he didn't. Whether he believes or not doesn't matter as long as he is ordained and uses the proper form I think.

If we know that it is unlikely and doubtful (due to the actions of the priest) that he truly believes the Eucharist is actually the Body and Blood of Our Lord, then his intention to actually consecrate the Host as the Body and Blood of Our Lord is likewise doubtful. Considering the priests’ actions often provide a probable doubt of this belief, their intentions are often equally dubious (to a participator who seeks to enjoin himself with the Body of Christ).

Yes, it would be very sinful for him; it could likewise be dangerous for us. A doubtful sacrament is no sacrament at all. If one is aware that an objective doubt exists, but fails to acknowledge that doubt, then that sacrament does not bind. If there is an objective doubt manifested in the priests' actions (or lack thereof) as to the intention (and very often matter and form) of the sacrament, one must bear in mind the axiom: "Lex dubia non obligat." (I know you're not stupid, so I don't want to treat you as if you are. But just for clarification, the English translation of the Latin word 'Obligat' is 'Bind').

I mention matter and form because these abuses occur more often than intention. One who knows that there is a likelihood of abuse, whether by commission or omission (given their frequency during the application of the Novus Ordo Missae), would then have to know, with absolute certainty parallel to that of a priest, exactly what constitutes the matter and form of the sacrament in order to eliminate any danger of worshipping bread. Because we know the likelihood of danger, we have a responsibility to avoid the danger.   

This doubt very rarely exists in the Traditional Latin Mass; likewise, the participator does not assume this responsibility. If, however, we knew that a certain priest was treating the Body and Blood of Christ with grave disrespect at a Traditional Latin Mass, which of us would not avoid this priest at all costs for fear of the dangers mentioned above? Further, would our desire to receive grace eliminate the objective doubt of which we were aware?
I have a question.  Instead of being in the pew scrutinizing every movement and nuance of the priest in an attempt to determine his beliefs and intentiontions,why don't you enjoin in the prayers of the Mass and unite yourself in the Sacrifice?  ???

Good question; I like your reasoning. If, because of our cognizance of likely or probable doubt, we must scrutinize every rubric of the priest to ensure validity, we need to ask ourselves what we're doing there in the first place.
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#64
Assuming you are a mentally healthy individual, I'd say the only reason you "must" is because you choose to.
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#65
I'm sorry but this thread is dizzying! If I have to worry about the intention of every priest and if I have to fear I am in sin for wanting to go to Mass (and attending a Novus Ordo because no TLM is available) then that seems like craziness to me. The Church says the Novus Ordo is valid and as long as I can find a Novus Ordo without any grave abuses, I will attend. If I could attend a Low Mass TLM during the week I would but I can't. I need Jesus and I see no reason to see the Novus Ordo as invalid (unless there is some grave, explicit way to know).

Yes, I prefer the TLM and yes I pray for the end to the Novus Ordo but as of right now, it is what it is.

Pax Christi tecum.
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#66
(04-23-2009, 09:44 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I don't think glass/crystal is noble... and I don't think they're allowed because they are breakable. I was clarifying my post which implied that material other than precious metals could never be used.

For a short time our church - under a lax pastor - used glass chalices until we got a new pastor who put an end to that. Keep in mind too that a lot of priests received crystal chalices as gifts before the rules changed. They may have permission from their bishops to use them on occasion.

- Lisa

Believe me, I think there are two problems with, oh we'll call them church accouterments.

Firstly, people say they prefer wood and glass altars (or chalices) because gold and marble are too expensive and extravagant.  I believe these people are actually only interested in appearances, because some of the wooden and glass constructions I've seen (altars, ambos, lecterns etc) are obviously expensive hand crafted one-of pieces.

Secondly, I'm sure some pastors are left with the white-elephants from the previous pastors.  If a load of money was recently spent on something ugly, I'm sure the parishioners would be up in arms if they were to be replaced.  A prime example of this would be the L.A. Cathedral.

Not only that, but there are also a few pieces where a parishioner will drop large money on some renovation, and it will turn out to be brutal; would the pastor be able to un-renovate it in his lifetime?
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#67
(04-24-2009, 10:13 AM)CarmeliteAtHeart Wrote: I'm sorry but this thread is dizzying! If I have to worry about the intention of every priest and if I have to fear I am in sin for wanting to go to Mass (and attending a Novus Ordo because no TLM is available) then that seems like craziness to me. The Church says the Novus Ordo is valid and as long as I can find a Novus Ordo without any grave abuses, I will attend. If I could attend a Low Mass TLM during the week I would but I can't. I need Jesus and I see no reason to see the Novus Ordo as invalid (unless there is some grave, explicit way to know).

Yes, I prefer the TLM and yes I pray for the end to the Novus Ordo but as of right now, it is what it is.

Pax Christi tecum.

Part of the SSPX doctrinal talks will have to include a statement on the Novus Ordo, which the SSPX will have to accept.  I'm for the "Novus Ordo is not intrinsically evil as promulgated".  I like this because it leaves it a lot unsaid.
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#68
(04-24-2009, 10:13 AM)CarmeliteAtHeart Wrote: I'm sorry but this thread is dizzying! If I have to worry about the intention of every priest and if I have to fear I am in sin for wanting to go to Mass (and attending a Novus Ordo because no TLM is available) then that seems like craziness to me.

I don't mean to insult you, but this sounds like the reasoning of a Protestant rather than a Catholic. God has given us a conscience.

(04-24-2009, 10:13 AM)CarmeliteAtHeart Wrote: The Church says the Novus Ordo is valid and as long as I can find a Novus Ordo without any grave abuses, I will attend. If I could attend a Low Mass TLM during the week I would but I can't. I need Jesus and I see no reason to see the Novus Ordo as invalid (unless there is some grave, explicit way to know). Yes, I prefer the TLM and yes I pray for the end to the Novus Ordo but as of right now, it is what it is.

Pax Christi tecum.

I have never stated that the Novus Ordo Missae is invalid. I have never stated you have to worry about the intention of every priest. I have never stated that anyone is in sin for wanting to go to Mass. Please do not extrapolate these misconceptions from my post. I have addressed only the issue of sacramental doubt’s non-binding nature. Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum; et cum spiritu tuo.
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#69
(04-24-2009, 10:13 AM)CarmeliteAtHeart Wrote: I'm sorry but this thread is dizzying! If I have to worry about the intention of every priest and if I have to fear I am in sin for wanting to go to Mass (and attending a Novus Ordo because no TLM is available) then that seems like craziness to me. The Church says the Novus Ordo is valid and as long as I can find a Novus Ordo without any grave abuses, I will attend. If I could attend a Low Mass TLM during the week I would but I can't. I need Jesus and I see no reason to see the Novus Ordo as invalid (unless there is some grave, explicit way to know).

Yes, I prefer the TLM and yes I pray for the end to the Novus Ordo but as of right now, it is what it is.

Pax Christi tecum.

"about the intention of every priest "
......Firstly as was stated above you DO NOT have to worry about the intention of every Priest, as long he 'does what the Church has always done' please re-read, there are quotes proving that.

"and if I have to fear I am in sin for wanting to go to Mass"
......No one EVER said at ANY ANY ANY point in this discussion that it is a sin to want to go to Mass, on the contrary we ALL know its a very virtuous desire. That was quite sarcastic of you.

"The Church says the Novus Ordo is valid" "and I see no reason to see the Novus Ordo as invalid"

Again the issue is not so much about validity as it is about liceity and morality

But on the issue of validity, it is certainly is possible to know if a mass is invalid - or else we would all be going to hell in a handbasket not knowing whether or not we have received the sacraments. 'To do as the church has always done' that is the intention part thats all - the Priest would have to explicitly state he does not intend to say Mass (were he still to use the form) (again please re-read the posts, its all explained clearly)

But certainly no can deny there is DEBATE about the whole 'for you and for many issue' and the 'mysterium fidei'
Critics quote Dei Defectibus which was about defects in validity of masses.

http://www.dailycatholic.org/defectib.htm  (I HIGHLY RECOMMEND READING THIS, ITS AN AMAZING PIECE OF WORK)

But theres not point in getting into this issue, i mean we may as well start a new thread about it - I'd bet it would have dozens of pages in a short time arguing the issue.

But what we CAN CERTAINLY KNOW is that as was most finely stated by INPEFESS:

(04-24-2009, 02:46 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: I have addressed only the issue of sacramental doubt’s non-binding nature.

Probable not possible doubt is all that is necessary to not only excuse us from the obligation, but forbid us from it.

And unless you can solve the pro multis and mysterium fidei issue then you too are bound by this.


And that is only ONE of the many many many many reasons why a Catholic may not attend the New Mass......

Your decisions should be based not on emotion but on reason.... you should be able to refute the points made her by INPEFESS and the quotes I posted, or you should accept them.....

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#70
(04-24-2009, 10:13 AM)CarmeliteAtHeart Wrote: I'm sorry but this thread is dizzying! If I have to worry about the intention of every priest and if I have to fear I am in sin for wanting to go to Mass (and attending a Novus Ordo because no TLM is available) then that seems like craziness to me. The Church says the Novus Ordo is valid and as long as I can find a Novus Ordo without any grave abuses, I will attend. If I could attend a Low Mass TLM during the week I would but I can't. I need Jesus and I see no reason to see the Novus Ordo as invalid (unless there is some grave, explicit way to know).

Yes, I prefer the TLM and yes I pray for the end to the Novus Ordo but as of right now, it is what it is.

Pax Christi tecum.

Let not your heart be troubled.  Go to the NO without any fear, especially if you are fortunate enough to find one without any grave abuses.  It's the same Mass the Vicar of Christ says every day. I'll take Christ's promise that His Church is indefectible over the ravings of amateur internet theologians anyday.
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