Licit to attend weekly NO Masses with abuses?
#85
Dr.Bombay said this:

"What I do believe with all my heart is that Christ would not allow his Church to promulgate a questionably valid Mass and allow four of his Vicars to say it publicly.  Appeals to Aquinas and Ott, et al don't move me I'm afraid. "

Where is the act of faith here? Faith in what? specifically. There is no guarantee the Pope cannot abuse his authority, the only guarantee is papal infallibility which does not relate to papal authority.

"Please show me where anyone has said anything about "an act of faith in Papal authority "other than you. But yes I  do believe in Papal authority, and yes the liturgy is included in that."

....So you want me to explain the doctrines of papal infallibility and papal authority to you? Fine.
(But it is quite rude of you, as you are the one that made the claim about 'faith' in some unnamed doctrine, but im sure youll do me the common courtesy of answering my question in your next post - you did make a statement  -you should back it up - else your just flapping you lips...)


So firstly to distinguish, ill start with Papal infallibility:

I have nice book in front of me which i will paraphrase and quote.

The Holy Father's infallibility does not cover his jurisdiction (which is universal) it is strictly defined and covers a very specific area.

"The roman pontiff, the successor of Blessed Peter in primacy, has not only the primacy of honor, but also the supreme and plenary power of jurisdiction throughout the universal church, both in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which have to do with the discipline and order of the Church. This power is truly episcopal, ordinary and direct, both over all and each of the Churches of Christendom, over all and each of the pastors and faithful and independent of any human authority whatsoever" - Codex Iuris Canonici Canon 218, Pars 1&2

So all Catholics including Priests regardless of station or rank must obey the Holy Father in all matters - except in sin (if they were commanded to sin)....this is quite logical obviously and normally need not be stated, but in reference to the New Mass it is very applicable.

His infallibility however does not cover his universal power and jurisdiction (which we will refer to as his authority). Think about it, common sense will approve this. The pope cant be infallible in EVERYTHING he says and does.

There is no gurantee anywhere in Divine Revelation or the teachings of the Church that prevent the Pope from for instance teaching erroneous things even heresy(as happened in the case of John 22nd), so long as he does not invoke his infallibility(Which the the Holy Ghost has guaranteed through the dogma of infallibilty (1st Vatican council)).

Theres is nothing stopping the Pope from being personally immoral or inept or imprudent or incompetent.


The doctrine of Papal infallibility has an inbuilt protection against people making the mistake of confusing the popes authority over his infallibiltiy.
By stating what he is infallible - by extension he states what he IS NOT infallible in. Following me (or my book) so far?

If Religous superiors (or any other superiors ) give a command to sin, quite logically we dont have to follow it. The same applies even to the pope.

So the point brought up earlier about the popes saying the New Mass and that Christ would never allow it were it wrong/questionably valid, is a truly ignorant notion, characteristic of someone who does not know how the doctrine of papal infallibility works.

So down to business - what is exactly is the pope infallible in?
Ex Cathedra statements, that is when the Pope defines a doctrine that is traditional (i.e is not new) and makes it obligatory for all Catholics to give their assent of faith to.
as to the conditions:
"the conditions required for an ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree : (a) The Pontiff must teach in his public and official capacity as pastor and doctor of all Christians, not merely as his private capacity as theologian, preacher, or allocutionist, nor in his capacity as temporal Prince or as a mere ordinary of the Diocese of Rome. It must be clear that he speaks as spiritual head of the universal Church.
(b) Then it is only when, in this capacity, he teaches some doctrine of faith or morals that he is infallible.
© Further it must be sufficiently evident that he intends to teach with all the fullness and finality of his supreme Apostolic authority, in other words that he wishes to determine some point of doctrine in an absolutely final and irrevocable way, or to define it in the technical sense.
(d)Finally for an ex cathedra decision it must be clear that the Pope intends to bind the whole Church, to demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching under pain of incurring spiritual shipwreck according to the expressionused by Pius IX in defining the Imamaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin"
- Catholic encyclopedia

...so in defining Papal infallibility it should be clear the difference between anex cathedra definition and legislation concerning the Mass, the first being the Pope teaching and part of the 'deposit of faith' the second being an action of the Pope done for pastoral discipline.(In the first he has the guarantee and protection of the Holy Ghost in the second he is quite fallible and it is certainly possible for him to err.)

So therefore having established that Pope is not infallible in his authority and I would call on you to admit this, you must then admit that he is fallible (not right or wrong but has the possibility of being wrong) when it comes to promulgating a New Mass.

So then it is not permitted or even actually possible to make an  'act of faith' in papal authority - as it is NOT infallible.
So youre description of 'faith' in the words quoted above  -that Christ would never allow several Popes to say a questionably valid/wrong mass, is completely and utterly erroneous.

The sad thing is this error about the Holy Father being infallible in his authority is widespread and the true doctrine is completely misunderstood.

So as for your quoting of scripture about binding and loosing  - i hope it fits into context now you understand the doctrine of Papal Infallibility.




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Re: Licit to attend weekly NO Masses with abuses? - by tradmaverick - 04-24-2009, 09:52 PM



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