Licit to attend weekly NO Masses with abuses?
My comments will, again,  have no bearing on resolving the argument in this thread.  I posted previously and no one made a sinlge comment.  Even so, I have something else to say.

I think all will agree with this.  Everyone, including myself, finds the (valid) NO Mass lacking. Everyone on this forum believes the traditional Latin Mass to be preferable.  Everyone believes the restoration of the traditional Mass is a priority. 

Can anyone tell me anything he is personally doing to remedy this situation besides sitting in his basement and bitching on the internet about how the NO is bad?  I would love to hear any of you tell me something, anything, positive you are doing to promote the Latin Mass.  All I am seeing on this website is people complaining about how bad the NO is, how going to the local NO is sending people to hell, how great it is to have  local Latin Mass.  Do you even think of your poor, misguided brethren who may have no choice but to attend the NO?  I am absolutely not being sarcastic.  If you want things to be better, why don't you do something?  Are you bringing any of your Catholic friends and neighbors in to the Latin Mass?  Are you even talking to your acquaintences about the importance of the Latin Mass?  Faithfully attending your local Latin Mass every Sunday, or even every day, is great!  I applaud you!  Many of us do not have that option.. 

I welcome your comments.
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I need to add that my previous post was very broadly stated.  I know there are a handful of you that actually are actively trying to bring the Latin Mass to your local parishes.  My comments were not directed at you.
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(04-25-2009, 10:59 PM)DrBombay Wrote: Why is your certitude better than mine?  I have certitude that the NO is valid, I don't know what else to tell you.

And don't be disingenuous.  If the NO is invalid as you claim, as are the sacraments attached to it, then there is no Pope and very few bishops and priests left.  That is where your argument leads.  Or perhaps you'd like to explain exactly what you mean by the "true Mass and true sacraments."

There's not one credible theologian in the Church today who agrees with your interpretation of the present crisis in the Church.  And by "credible", I mean just that, not some wing nut with a blog.


The reason being is that my certitude is actually certitude - you however have failed to counter even one of the points i posted, you have consistently ignored them and skipped over them, your 'certitude' is based on what? you have only made one argument on disciplinary infallibility, thats it, which I have countered above - and you didnt respond to that either.

I dont claim the Novus Ordo is invalid  - i can claim it is debatable whether it is valid i have repeatedly stated that it is doubtfully valid in certain cases, i said nothing about it being universally invalid. What i have repeatedly stated - is that there is a lot of debate about its validity!! Dei Defectibus is the main driver behind that side of the argument, and i suppose the quote you provided from the catechism of  St.Pius X and the opinion of St.Thomas Aquinas is the other. Again i dont know for sure, what I do know is that there is positive doubt.

If the NO is invalid as you claim, as are the sacraments attached to it, then there is no Pope and very few bishops and priests left

Where have I once said that the other sacraments are invalid let alone doubtfully valid? You are actually resorting to lying and putting words in my mouth? What I mean by the true sacraments are the TRADITIONAL sacraments of the Church - the "received and approved rites" of the Church - what I mean is the sacraments that have been the consolation of all the saints, my goodness can you not understand a basic term like that? You should really retract that comment in charity, i am not a sedevacantist and I do not doubt the validity of the other sacraments if they are done correctly.

Some wing nut with a blog? Argumentum ad hominem again! You clearly have no idea how to debate - as well as being extremely uncharitable. Youre trying to marginalise me by isolating my opinion -despite the fact it is the arguments of the sspx and tons of other traditional Priests.

Now I must say this again to clarify - you have not responded to any of my points -clearly because you are unable to do so, as such you should admit that they are valid points at the very least or point out where they are wrong.
You have consistently resorted to argumentum ad hominem, name calling and attempting to discredit me.

You are not an honest debater and truly it has been frustrating debating with you. I am sorry that we could not debate together in humilty and charity and with a love of truth - you have expressed no interest in doing so and as such i will make this my last reply to you unless you address and attempt to counter ALL the points I made.
God Bless you and may you live a long and happy and holy life.

Please do not respond with name calling or attempts to sideline me -address the points or dont reply

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Well now you're changing your argument.  Of course the NO is doubtfully valid in some cases but then, so are the traditional sacraments of the Church. How do you know, for instance, that the priest isn't whispering "Bread thou art and bread thou shalt remain" during the consecration?  You don't, because you can't hear what he is saying.

If you refer to something as the "true Mass and sacraments" you are implying that Mass and sacraments in any other form are not true.  Do you not understand a basic term like "true?"  You must be more careful in how you word things if you don't want people to misconstrue what you are saying.

As for not responding to your points, I again don't know what to tell you.  The Church is infallible in her discipline.  You may dismiss that as a theological opinion, but it is what it is.  You have your opinion, I have mine.
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Moving to theological debate.  Even though the tone allowed in there is different, please keep it within reason.
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(04-25-2009, 11:15 PM)Anthem Wrote: My comments will, again,  have no bearing on resolving the argument in this thread.  I posted previously and no one made a sinlge comment.  Even so, I have something else to say.

I think all will agree with this.  Everyone, including myself, finds the (valid) NO Mass lacking. Everyone on this forum believes the traditional Latin Mass to be preferable.  Everyone believes the restoration of the traditional Mass is a priority. 

Can anyone tell me anything he is personally doing to remedy this situation besides sitting in his basement and bitching on the internet about how the NO is bad?  I would love to hear any of you tell me something, anything, positive you are doing to promote the Latin Mass.  All I am seeing on this website is people complaining about how bad the NO is, how going to the local NO is sending people to hell, how great it is to have  local Latin Mass.  Do you even think of your poor, misguided brethren who may have no choice but to attend the NO?  I am absolutely not being sarcastic.  If you want things to be better, why don't you do something?  Are you bringing any of your Catholic friends and neighbors in to the Latin Mass?  Are you even talking to your acquaintences about the importance of the Latin Mass?  Faithfully attending your local Latin Mass every Sunday, or even every day, is great!  I applaud you!  Many of us do not have that option.. 

I welcome your comments.

One might spend his whole life promoting, but in the end, it is God who changes peoples' hearts. I pray more than promote. I can honestly tell you that my own strict adherence to tradition is a source of peace and a result of grace obtained through much prayer.

By option do you mean convenience? I do not have the convenience of a local Traditional Latin Mass - I drive half-way across the state to get to it, but I go nonetheless. To me, it's more of a necessity than a convenience. My conscience isn't at peace otherwise.

Other than that, I don't have any friends who attend the Novus Ordo Missae. But I pray for all of those who do - as well as for the reconciliation of Holy Mother Church - everyday.
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(04-25-2009, 11:15 PM)Anthem Wrote: My comments will, again,  have no bearing on resolving the argument in this thread.  I posted previously and no one made a sinlge comment.  Even so, I have something else to say.

I think all will agree with this.  Everyone, including myself, finds the (valid) NO Mass lacking. Everyone on this forum believes the traditional Latin Mass to be preferable.  Everyone believes the restoration of the traditional Mass is a priority. 

Can anyone tell me anything he is personally doing to remedy this situation besides sitting in his basement and bitching on the internet about how the NO is bad?  I would love to hear any of you tell me something, anything, positive you are doing to promote the Latin Mass.  All I am seeing on this website is people complaining about how bad the NO is, how going to the local NO is sending people to hell, how great it is to have  local Latin Mass.  Do you even think of your poor, misguided brethren who may have no choice but to attend the NO?  I am absolutely not being sarcastic.  If you want things to be better, why don't you do something?  Are you bringing any of your Catholic friends and neighbors in to the Latin Mass?  Are you even talking to your acquaintences about the importance of the Latin Mass?  Faithfully attending your local Latin Mass every Sunday, or even every day, is great!  I applaud you!  Many of us do not have that option.. 

I welcome your comments.


Well said,
I suppose to reiterate what was said by INPEFESS, God alone can do anything good really, but as regards our part in the whole matter- the only thing I do is put posters up around town, in the schools and colleges, shop windows mostly, I got some nice pictures on the internet and it looks quite nice, I must do it today actually seen as how our monthly visit from the Society is coming up next week!

Besides that I suppose just having to drive for hours to get to the Mass every Sunday (although in my case since my wife has become pregnant its been a bit harder) is a good way of promoting it to friends and family, it shows you really are willing to do anything to get it - so it must be important. I know there are a lot of people who cannot financially afford to drive for that length of time - I mean there is more than fuel involved - theres food for the journey and keeping the car maintained, a lot of younger families are far too poor to make it more than once a month. But I think the majority of people probably could get a good part of their family there every week, i think a 2/3hr trip to Mass isnt too much to ask if your able for it and you can afford it.

But yes you are right, actions speak a lot louder than words.
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Tradmaverick have you gotten my private message? I'm interested to hear your response to what I wrote.
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(04-24-2009, 04:11 PM)tradmaverick Wrote: http://www.dailycatholic.org/defectib.htm  (I HIGHLY RECOMMEND READING THIS, ITS AN AMAZING PIECE OF WORK)

Could you identify the quoted text in terms of the Council of Trent (session number of preferably Denzinger number)

Session 22 is about the Holy Mass

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct22.html

Denzinger 1734 ff

http://www.catho.org/9.php?d=bx4#cfw





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Im sorry i dont understand your question, are you asking me to tell you where Dei Defectibus comes from or how it relates to the council of Trent?

If the former, it was a papal bull of St.Pius V, which along with Quo Primum accompanied the standard rubrics in every Roman Missal, it was dropped simply because it was 'approved' to do so.

.....how very convenient


Is there even one reason you can think of why one would drop such a document from the Roman Missal - the one book that requires it????

(Cant you just hear the modernist saying - ah lets not worry TOO much about validity)
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