Infiltration of the Catholic Church?
#11
(04-18-2009, 08:20 AM)anthony Wrote: I'm sure there have been imposter clergy in every age.

Yes, and until recently the Church took active measures to root out imposters as many organizations still do today.
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#12
Why did Sheen ask him to be quiet?
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#13
I think far more dangerous than secret communist agents within the Church were the Catholic prelates who made inroads with the communists.  I am specifically talking about the Pax priests of Eastern Europe, their bishops, and Pope Paul VI.  The way that Pope treated Cardinal Mindszenty was a disgrace. 
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#14
Paul VI kind od had a nack for that: Mindszenty, Lefebvre, Sr. Lucy etcc.
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#15
(04-18-2009, 04:55 PM)columba Wrote:
(04-18-2009, 05:36 AM)dkpintar Wrote: [blue] is this REALLY to be believed? [/blue] come on folks . .

You opposing evidence and argument with nothing more than sentiment indicates you have no counter-evidence or counter-argument.

I don't think it works that way. I think the person with the fantastic claims has the burden of proof, not the person suggesting the status quo or supporting simple explanations over complex conspiracies?
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#16
(04-18-2009, 08:29 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(04-18-2009, 04:55 PM)columba Wrote:
(04-18-2009, 05:36 AM)dkpintar Wrote: [blue] is this REALLY to be believed? [/blue] come on folks . .

You opposing evidence and argument with nothing more than sentiment indicates you have no counter-evidence or counter-argument.

I don't think it works that way. I think the person with the fantastic claims has the burden of proof, not the person suggesting the status quo or supporting simple explanations over complex conspiracies?

Are you saying that quoting testimony from three highly credible first-hand witnesses of communist infiltration does not meet the burden of proof for this forum?
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#17
(04-18-2009, 07:37 PM)didishroom Wrote: Paul VI kind od had a nack for that: Mindszenty, Lefebvre, Sr. Lucy etcc.

True dat.

Quote:I don't think it works that way. I think the person with the fantastic claims has the burden of proof, not the person suggesting the status quo or supporting simple explanations over complex conspiracies?

Columba's article showed that a certain Jeremiah O'Carroll was a communist agent and staff member on a Catholic periodical.  But that's not a priest.  

I am sure most here are familiar with the book "AA 1025" about an alleged priest who is a communist agent.  Having read it, I think it is a pretty poor work of fiction.  It doesn't name names, and I cannot imagine a secret agent living the life of a pre-Vatican seminarian without quickly blowing their brains out.

There is no doubt that there are external enemies of the Church, but it seems to me that their danger comes from influencing Catholics with bad principles, rather than infiltrating the Church.      
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#18
(04-18-2009, 10:11 PM)PeterII Wrote: I cannot imagine a secret agent living the life of a pre-Vatican seminarian without quickly blowing their brains out.

There is no doubt that there are external enemies of the Church, but it seems to me that their danger comes from influencing Catholics with bad principles, rather than infiltrating the Church.      

I would refer you to Abp. Lefebvre:
http://tinyurl.com/dnadg2 Wrote:Yes, I am disobedient to people like those Bugninis. For they have infiltrated themselves into the Church in order to destroy it. There is no other explanation. [...]

There are hidden things, which clearly escape us. Some say that it is Freemasonry. It's possible. I do not know. In any case, there is a mystery.

An official inquiry commission could solve past mysteries protect against current or future subversion attempts.
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#19
(04-18-2009, 11:09 PM)columba Wrote:
(04-18-2009, 10:11 PM)PeterII Wrote: I cannot imagine a secret agent living the life of a pre-Vatican seminarian without quickly blowing their brains out.

There is no doubt that there are external enemies of the Church, but it seems to me that their danger comes from influencing Catholics with bad principles, rather than infiltrating the Church.      

I would refer you to Abp. Lefebvre:
http://tinyurl.com/dnadg2 Wrote:Yes, I am disobedient to people like those Bugninis. For they have infiltrated themselves into the Church in order to destroy it. There is no other explanation. [...]

There are hidden things, which clearly escape us. Some say that it is Freemasonry. It's possible. I do not know. In any case, there is a mystery.

An official inquiry commission could solve past mysteries protect against current or future subversion attempts.

I know a priest who knew Bugnini personally while living in Rome in the 60s.  I asked whether Bugnini was a Freemason.  He said that Bugnini had friends who were Freemasons and had dinner parties with them.  It was inevitable if you were part of the high class social milieu of the time.  But he did not believe Bugnini was a Freemason himself, and Bugnini denied that claim too, which I believe. 

Did Bugnini know he was doing something wrong?  Was it a conscious conspiracy to destroy the Church?  Lefebvre doesn't know and neither do we.  We know that the principles were bad and this is what infiltrated the Church.  Objectively we can say they were destroying it, but subjectively they probably thought they were helping it. 

 
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#20
(04-18-2009, 10:05 PM)columba Wrote: Are you saying that quoting testimony from three highly credible first-hand witnesses of communist infiltration does not meet the burden of proof for this forum?

No, I don't want to come off as snide, because I don't mean it this way, but I think I'm saying that quoting testimony from three witnesses (I'm not sure how credible actually) doesn't meet the burden of proof for anything, this forum or no.

Your claim is extraordinary, I need extraordinary evidence. If you were saying that someone stole a car stereo or robbed a bank or something mundane, then yes, three witnesses (assuming they check out) would be compelling.

However, PeterII makes a great point, it's hard to imagine, albeit not impossible that a communist 'infiltrator' per se would be able to pull off the sleeper routine needed through ordination to do this.
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