Infiltration of the Catholic Church?
#31
Iuvenalis Wrote:
columba Wrote:Bugnini was the main author of the Novus Ordo that replaced the Latin Mass.
Yes, but 1)it is unproven that he was a Mason,
But it is certainly known that he wanted to democratize, modernize, water down and even protestantize the Church's liturgy in a definintely heretical way. Is it not odd that so many Catholics churches today look like baren  Freemasonic temples rather than the historical Catholic ethos? The Church is in heresy today and you are ignorant of your faith if you do not believe this. You are also ignorant of history (willful or unwillful) if you do not know that Vatican II and all the many reforms that followed it were the start or focalpoint of this crisis, whether they are the true cause or not. I believe they are rather consequences of the true cause which is the heresy of Modernism. Read about St. Pius X and what the Modernists did in his time.

Quote:2)or that the alteration of the Mass is what resulted in "relax(ed) sexual mores, disfigure(d) the beauty of Churches, impoverish(ed) art and music, turn(ed) men effeminate and women masculine, encourage(d) consumerism, discourage(d) prayer, undermine(d) scripture,..."
If you deny that then you either do not get out or are blind to the evidence right before your face.

Quote:3)Much less have you explained how the entire body of bishops at the Council was motivated to destroy the Church as well by approving these liturgical changes.
Who said the entire Apostolic College? The Holy Father, Archbishop Lefebrve, and all the other holy priests/bishops at the Council were clearly not motivated to destroy their Holy Mother. Though I believe it was quite a large group, no one seriously believes (except maybe some extremely paranoid sedes) that the entire body of bishops intended for this crisis to happen. I believe most whether bishop, priest or laity went along with the reform for the sake of peace of conscience in obedience to the Holy Father and his Apostolic Constitution.

Quote:Lastly, if the pre-VII liturgy was the liturgy, and it alone brought the graces of the Church (you, and some others, seem to attach a huge importance to liturgical form without making it clear why), the what do you make of the pre-VII rites that were not the Tridentine, yet were still approved, and in use prior like a) the Dominican Rite, the pre-Tridentine b)Gallican (not to be confused with Gallicanism) Rite (was that not valid?!) in use for most of the first millenium (the Tridentine Rite was publised in the 1500's I think?), the c) Milanese Rite (one of my favorite saints, Ambrose, worshipped in this rite)??
It is the Roman Liturgy, not the one and only Catholic Liturgy. The Eastern Liturgies are true and Catholic Liturgies and there is nothing wrong nor even interior about them to the Roman and the same goes for all the other Western Liturgies or Missals. They are all the same Divine Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ in Its unbloody manner.
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#32
You merely (re)stated what I've asked to be proved, more or less impugned my intelligence, essentially ad hominem responses, and your last 'point' completely missed my point.

Never mind.

By the way, on the personal attacks. Since I'm so ignorant, I may as well live up (down as it were) to your expectations by being crass: You're an ass.
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#33
Iuvenalis Wrote:You merely (re)stated what I've asked to be proved, more or less impugned my intelligence, essentially ad hominem responses, and your last 'point' completely missed my point.
Do you desire quotations from Buginini? Because I can provide those. Believe me I understand your points loud and clear. Also intelligence is a matter of knowledge, not just reasoning ability. I impugned your knowledge, not your intellect itself. I'm sure you're quite capable intellectually as most men are. Pride, hatred, jealous,  etc can get in the way though and corrupt a perfectly able intellect of a man. But as our Lord said: The truth shalt make you free.
Only the truth can guide your intellect which is what informs your will and what is good and what is evil.

Quote:Never mind.
Great attitude to have on such an important subject as the possible destuction of our Divine Religion.

Quote:By the way, on the personal attacks. Since I'm so ignorant, I may as well live up (down as it were) to your expectations by being crass: You're an ass.
I was not trying to insult you by saying you are ignorant. I meant ignorance merely as "the lack of knowledge". It is one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy to teach the ignorant.
What reason is there for calling me an ass? I don't get it.
If you don't believe there is infiltration in Holy Mother Church then fine, you have your opinions, as long as you believe the Catholic Faith, are doing what you believe you ought to be doing concerning this crisis, staying out of mortal sin and frequently the Sacraments. It takes a certain light from God to see a remote or hidden danger. As long as you don't disbelieve what you clearing see and understand, that is the worse.
And looking at the world with rose-colored glasses is not good (not that you are doing this!). But a Catholic I see mankind as being Fallen and at this period in time very, very sinful and our Faith, not to mention reason alone, clearly dictates we ought not ignore what is plainly before our eyes for our intellect to understand.
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#34
I agree with Penitent on this one - communists (and freemasons) infiltrated every threat to them, so why such a surprise that they might have done so in the Church? Opus Dei and such infiltrate the secular media, universities etc, just like communists and freemasons, because that's just the way that stuff works. It's a reality, but it needn't lead to grandiose conspiracy theories that take things too far. It's politics.
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#35
(04-19-2009, 11:14 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: Masons in Protestant countries have historically dominated the establishment. Masons in Catholic countries operated revolutionary cells to tare down governments

I agree...but this is fairly provable, unlike much of what you state, by citing the Masonic role in the French revolution, for example.
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: and convents.

Huh? When? Where? Citation please?

This is all over the Internet. You can search for it.
Quote:
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: They killed many thousands of priests and nuns and captured and banished the popes. After Vatican II, they enlisted the Vatican to order dissolution of the last remaining Catholic governments. 18th and 19th-century popes wrote many encyclicals against the masons. In the US, B'nai B'rith is a masonic lodge for Jews only that runs the ADL. B'nai B'rith members have full access to gentile lodge secret meetings but gentile masons may not enter B'nai B'rith lodges. This makes B'nai B'rith dominant.

You really go on a tear here, but don't cite anything. I'm not saying you're wrong or a liar, but you don't cite anything. As I said in my last post, you say a lot of things that you seem to think are uncontroversial or are fiat.
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: A masonic infiltrator would seek to desacralize the Mass, relax sexual mores, disfigure the beauty of Churches, impoverish art and music, turn men effeminate and women masculine, encourage consumerism, discourage prayer, undermine scripture, discourage religious garb, teach shame of Catholic history, and sow enmity between sexes, age groups, races, and income brackets.

Anyone seeking to destroy the Church would (try to) do these things. You neither prove that they've been done, much less that guys in fez hats can, have, or would do so.
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: Masonic leadership is a secret, unified hierarchy with headquarters in London.
I suppose it depends on what you consider their 'leadership.' Their "Grand Masters" are fairly public roles, look at their websites. If you're going to claim there is some 'secret' unprovable cadre of super-secret leaders in the shadows, that's a claim that would again require proof. I'd grant you some latitude here as well, because it would be hard to prove, but I don't even see a shred of evidence.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13698753/Occul...tar-Miller (pgs. 288-290)
http://www.newolivepress.co.uk/appendices.htm
http://www.johnthebaptist.us/sbw/article...peril1.jpg
http://www.johnthebaptist.us/sbw/article...peril2.jpg
Quote:
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: Masonic leaders are not themselves liberal because they understand human concupiscence but they preach liberalism to others.

Again, what are you talking about?

Masons have historically not allowed women or non-Jewish minorities and they threaten to kill members who reveal secrets.
Quote:
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: Bugnini was the main author of the Novus Ordo that replaced the Latin Mass.

Yes, but 1)it is unproven that he was a Mason, 2)or that the alteration of the Mass is what resulted in "relax(ed) sexual mores, disfigure(d) the beauty of Churches, impoverish(ed) art and music, turn(ed) men effeminate and women masculine, encourage(d) consumerism, discourage(d) prayer, undermine(d) scripture,..."
3)Much less have you explained how the entire body of bishops at the Council was motivated to destroy the Church as well by approving these liturgical changes.

Lastly, if the pre-VII liturgy was the liturgy, and it alone brought the graces of the Church (you, and some others, seem to attach a huge importance to liturgical form without making it clear why), the what do you make of the pre-VII rites that were not the Tridentine, yet were still approved, and in use prior like a) the Dominican Rite, the pre-Tridentine b)Gallican (not to be confused with Gallicanism) Rite (was that not valid?!) in use for most of the first millenium (the Tridentine Rite was publised in the 1500's I think?), the c) Milanese Rite (one of my favorite saints, Ambrose, worshipped in this rite)??

You need a course in the basics. I suggest starting here:

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Societ...Catholics/
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#36
(05-06-2009, 06:38 PM)columba Wrote: This is all over the Internet. You can search for it.

No. I assure you I've never seen anything referenceable on this topic. And yes, I'm familiar with searches. The key, which you seem to miss entirely, is whether I would be able to find anything credible. I have not. You claim to have it. Just to set a bar here, unsubstantiated claims are not 'proof,' even if someone else makes the claims and you cite them.

The "Huh? When? Where? Citation please?" was in reference to your claim that Masons are tearing down convents. This is not 'all over the internet'.

(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13698753/Occul...tar-Miller (pgs. 288-290)
http://www.newolivepress.co.uk/appendices.htm
http://www.johnthebaptist.us/sbw/article...peril1.jpg
http://www.johnthebaptist.us/sbw/article...peril2.jpg
Your sources are feces. If you can't produce anything besides this, I will label you a madman.

(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: Masons have historically not allowed women or non-Jewish minorities and they threaten to kill members who reveal secrets.
Their 'secrets' are literally 'all over the internet' speaking of something that actually is all over the internet. There'd be an awful lot of bodies, I don't see them.

(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: You need a course in the basics. I suggest starting here:

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Societ...Catholics/
I have this book. It's on my coffee table. It says nothing of what I've asked. It says plenty about the typical TLM post hoc fallacy of course, and also says nothing of the existence of other rites pre-VII, something I've pointedly asked you. Pointed questions don't get very far with you, you're a copy-paste guy I can tell.
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#37
(05-07-2009, 12:38 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(05-06-2009, 06:38 PM)columba Wrote: This is all over the Internet. You can search for it.

No. I assure you I've never seen anything referenceable on this topic. And yes, I'm familiar with searches. The key, which you seem to miss entirely, is whether I would be able to find anything credible. I have not. You claim to have it. Just to set a bar here, unsubstantiated claims are not 'proof,' even if someone else makes the claims and you cite them.

The "Huh? When? Where? Citation please?" was in reference to your claim that Masons are tearing down convents. This is not 'all over the internet'.

Sigh...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picpus_Cemetery Wrote:Among the women, sixteen Carmelite nuns ranging in age from 29 to 78, were brought to the guillotine together, singing hymns as they were led to the scaffold, an incident commemorated in the opera Dialogues of the Carmelites. They were beatified in 1906.

Reynald Secher Wrote:when Catholic peasants in Vendée dared to resist this persecution, the ruling atheists ordered the entire population of that region to be exterminated — men, women, and children. They sent out the army in “infernal columns” to “depopulate the Vendée.” Secher says the minimum number of casualties is around 118,000, while Davies thinks the number is closer to 250,000.

Michael Davies Wrote:Resistance to this persecution erupted in August 1792 when 600 Vendean peasants brandishing farm tools tried to stop the National Guard from evicting nuns from a convent. Most of the peasants died for this chivalrous deed.

Previous two quotes here: http://www.newoxfordreview.org/reviews.j...4-gardiner
Quote:
Quote:
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13698753/Occul...tar-Miller (pgs. 288-290)
http://www.newolivepress.co.uk/appendices.htm
http://www.johnthebaptist.us/sbw/article...peril1.jpg
http://www.johnthebaptist.us/sbw/article...peril2.jpg
Your sources are feces. If you can't produce anything besides this, I will label you a madman.
no they are not

Yeah right. Published books and articles are not the "extraordinary evidence" you require.
Quote:
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: Masons have historically not allowed women or non-Jewish minorities and they threaten to kill members who reveal secrets.
Their 'secrets' are literally 'all over the internet' speaking of something that actually is all over the internet. There'd be an awful lot of bodies, I don't see them.

This a published former 32nd degree Mason and Shriner, but I know you will say that is not good enough.
John Salza Wrote:These oaths are also sworn under symbolic, blood-curdling penalties of physical torture and death called self-curses (e.g., having my throat cut across, and my tongue torn out by its roots).

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/freemas...html#faq09

Quote:
(04-19-2009, 08:54 PM)columba Wrote: You need a course in the basics. I suggest starting here:

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Societ...Catholics/
I have this book. It's on my coffee table. It says nothing of what I've asked. It says plenty about the typical TLM post hoc fallacy of course, and also says nothing of the existence of other rites pre-VII, something I've pointedly asked you. Pointed questions don't get very far with you, you're a copy-paste guy I can tell.

I can't believe you have that book.  I have done plenty of typing for you but you never debate issues or offer your own facts. No more. I believe you are a time-wasting troll.
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