Libertarianism
#21
"but ultimately those things are comprised of free-choosing individuals"

NO THEY ARE NOT.
I cannot say it any more clearer.

We do have to make a distinction, in the modern world, which has already been atomized by 400 years of liberalism yes, these things are made up partly of people who choose to be part of them but that's not how traditional societies work.

You are Catholic, for instance, because you are BORN Catholic in a Catholic family, in a Catholic society...etc etc...
Families are NEVER chosen, neither are communities.
You can make the argument that GIVEN THE CURRENT circumstances libertarianism is a lesser of evils, at least then we can choose correctly but that still puts human choice at the crux and that has nothing to do with traditionalism.
It makes us all liberals.
This situation makes me doubt that a truly traditional life is even possible anymore in the West. Due to the impact of liberalism, we can do not more than choose to be traditional, which is an oxymoron.
Several writers at First Principles (Modern Age), Front Porch Republic, Rod Dreher, Edward Feser, have dealt with this topic I suggest you study the issue.
The fact is there are virtually no non-liberals in the West today. Those of us that reject liberalism do so on ground of choice, which is a LIBERAL thing to do. It's a catch-22.
I can CHOOSE to go to a TLM, I can CHOOSE to not have a TV, I can CHOOSE to live off the land, I can CHOOSE to not use birth control...etc...
All I have really done is deify choice.
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#22
(05-02-2009, 12:39 PM)kjvail Wrote: "but ultimately those things are comprised of free-choosing individuals"

NO THEY ARE NOT.
I cannot say it any more clearer.

Well you can say it as clearly as you like, nevertheless, institutions are comprised of individuals.  Furthermore, recognizing this truth in no way threatens the existence of such institutions.  All the libertarian does is begin ontologically from the perspective of the individual.  The reason we begin from there is because perception is the fundamental starting point of human experience.  Institutions do not have a collective consciousness nor collective free will.

Quote:We do have to make a distinction, in the modern world, which has already been atomized by 400 years of liberalism yes, these things are made up partly of people who choose to be part of them but that's not how traditional societies work.

You are Catholic, for instance, because you are BORN Catholic in a Catholic family, in a Catholic society...etc etc...
Families are NEVER chosen, neither are communities.

That's simply untrue.  Many people convert to Catholicism, or away from Catholicism, or any other religion, institution or community.  People move to various communities.  Employment opportunities require them to leave a community, and so on.  Even in a Catholic society, all of these things would be true to some extent, unless the Catholic Church became some kind of totalitarian theocracy.

Quote:This situation makes me doubt that a truly traditional life is even possible anymore in the West. Due to the impact of liberalism, we can do not more than choose to be traditional, which is an oxymoron.
Several writers at First Principles (Modern Age), Front Porch Republic, Rod Dreher, Edward Feser, have dealt with this topic I suggest you study the issue.
The fact is there are virtually no non-liberals in the West today. Those of us that reject liberalism do so on ground of choice, which is a LIBERAL thing to do. It's a catch-22.
I can CHOOSE to go to a TLM, I can CHOOSE to not have a TV, I can CHOOSE to live off the land, I can CHOOSE to not use birth control...etc...
All I have really done is deify choice.

Okay, so all choice is bad?  If in any way you choose, whether or not it be good, you are submitting to liberalism, "deifying it"?  While you use the term "liberalism" (a blanket "ism" thrown on anything people don't seem to like), what you are really saying is that freedom, in any form, is bad.  A Catholic institution should restrict your behaviour to the point where your path is completely set in stone, and that way you will not be "cursed" with the "liberalism" of having to choose.  The irony is that many Catholic societies were much freer than our completely illiberal society today.
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