Should torture ever be allowed?
#95
(04-29-2009, 09:07 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:Do you have a theological argument or just an emotional reaction to offer?

Mine is an emotional reaction. If the CCC is "theology" then I go with that one.

Luther's Theses are "theology".  We should hold to a theology that is consistent with Tradition and Scripture.

Quote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:  Well, if you want to handpick which parts of the Gospel you are going to use in this case, so will I: Then the master sent for him. "You wicked servant," he said, "I cancelled all that debt of yours when you appealed to me. Were you not bound, then, to have pity on your fellow servant just as I had pity on you?" And in his anger the master handed him over to the torturers till he should pay all his debt. And that is how my heavenly Father will deal with you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart. (Matt 18:32-35)

Jesus didn't complain about the torture, in fact, He used it as an allegory for what will happen to those who die not forgiving others.  Would He use an intrinsic evil as an allegorical mechanism?  Interesting question.  I don't know the answer, and I don't expect anyone else on the forum does either.

Again, as I said in an earlier post, these allegories, parables, beatitudes, sermons, examples, etc., are not excuses for the bad behavior of others. Jesus uses stories about strict taskmasters and land owners because the people of the day could certainly relate to it. Debtor's prison was an everyday reality. Torture was an everyday reality. Crucifixion was everyday reality. But I think you answered your own question. The parable you quoted is a lesson about the virtue of FORGIVENESS - not the virtues of torture.

It's a lesson about the virture of forgiveness, sure, but the point is He says nothing about torture either pro or con.  In fact, show me one place in the Bible that torture is condemned outright.  You won't find it as far as I recall in my Bible reading.  So, that leaves the Magisterium to discern it.  Which is why I called foul when you said to look at the Sermon on the Mount.  That has nothing to do with torture either that I can see, but more importantly the Magisterium hasn't said it does, nor does it say that torture is always intrinsically evil.  Or are you willing to imply 3 popes and a bunch of bishops of prescribed intrinsically evil behavior?  I mean, they certainly could have especially if they did not know it was intrinsically evil.  I'm just saying that for me it will take more than a few Scripture verses with my own understanding of them to compel me to say that they did prescribe an intrinsic evil.

Quote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:The point is that we can't pick and choose how the Scripture applies, the Magisterium does, and that is what we are discussing - whether or not the Magisterium has done so in the case of torture.  You and a few others seem convinced that torture is forbidden, signed, sealed, and delivered.  And there is always the reference to "in this day" as if the year had anything to do with the sin.

Quis, you have a point. The year has nothing to do with the sin. What was a sin in biblical times, was a sin in the Middles Ages, and is a sin today. But no matter the era we live in, our standards for morality should be the standards of Christ. Does torture live up to it?

I dunno if torture lives up to it.  That's the whole point of moral theology - to discern what is moral or not; what holds up to God's standards.

St. Thomas Aquinas thought torture was OK.  He's a Doctor of the Church.  Clearly, he could be wrong because he wasn't infallible, but he didn't see a conflict between torturing a heretic and the standards of Christ.  So, all that means is there is some work needed to discern it one way or the other.  But that work is accomplished with reason, discussion, and thought, not by emotion.
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Messages In This Thread
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Walty - 04-29-2009, 10:29 AM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by DrBombay - 04-29-2009, 03:05 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by SCG - 04-29-2009, 03:09 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by SCG - 04-29-2009, 03:12 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Texican - 04-29-2009, 03:14 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by SCG - 04-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by DrBombay - 04-29-2009, 03:23 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Texican - 04-29-2009, 04:31 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Texican - 04-29-2009, 05:00 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Texican - 04-29-2009, 05:03 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Melita - 04-29-2009, 05:23 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Texican - 04-29-2009, 05:32 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Walty - 04-29-2009, 06:57 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by SCG - 04-29-2009, 07:33 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Texican - 04-29-2009, 07:45 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by SCG - 04-29-2009, 08:20 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by SCG - 04-29-2009, 08:26 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by SCG - 04-29-2009, 08:45 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by SCG - 04-29-2009, 09:07 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Historian - 04-29-2009, 09:28 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by Marc - 04-29-2009, 09:40 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by INPEFESS - 04-30-2009, 08:14 AM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by INPEFESS - 04-30-2009, 09:45 AM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by INPEFESS - 04-30-2009, 10:27 AM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by INPEFESS - 04-30-2009, 11:01 AM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by INPEFESS - 09-02-2009, 11:19 AM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by glgas - 09-02-2009, 01:50 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by INPEFESS - 09-02-2009, 03:16 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by INPEFESS - 09-02-2009, 09:05 PM
Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - by INPEFESS - 09-03-2009, 01:16 AM



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