Who is the Rock in Matthew 16:13-19?
#21
"You are Kepha and upon this kepha I will build my Church."

Our Lord couldn't have been clearer on this. Too bad for prottie ecclesiology.
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#22
(05-15-2009, 08:38 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(05-15-2009, 07:29 PM)DJR Wrote:
(05-15-2009, 07:12 PM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(05-15-2009, 06:06 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: Wrong language fallacy

John 1:42

et adduxit eum ad Iesum intuitus autem eum Iesus dixit tu es Simon filius Iohanna tu vocaberis Cephas quod interpretatur Petrus



Cephas or kefa or some sort of transliteration from Aramaic.  There is only one word for that, not a feminine or diminutive form

so it would have been Rock...rock, not little rock...rock.

Correct - the word in Aramaic is כאפא kîfâ, which is incidentally a feminine word in Aramaic.  There are other words for "stone" or "rock" in Aramaic, but there is no indication that a different word is ever in view in the Bible.  The word is probably "Petros" in Greek because Greek words very obviously show their gender in a way that Semitic words do not - it might have been vaguely insulting to use a feminine form in Greek, whereas in Aramaic it might not have been.  That's just speculation, though.

But your speculation is correct.  Our Lord did not speak Greek to his apostles; He spoke to them in their native tongue.  The Greek, though inspired, is merely what was written.  The Gospel writer would not put "Petra" (feminine) in the Greek for Peter; he would put "Petros," which is masculine.  What Our Lord said to Peter was, "Thou art Kepha, and on this Kepha I will build My Church." 

Other languages that don't have the gender problem encountered in the Greek have the same thing.  French:  Thou art Pierre, and on this Pierre I will build my Church..."

The Protestants can come up with their lame explanations all they like; it doesn't change the fact that Peter was singled out as the shepherd of the Church.  "Feed my lambs...," et cetera.  He said that to Peter, and to Peter alone.  Only a shepherd feeds the flock; the flock cannot feed itself.  Thus, Peter was designated as the shepherd of the Church by Our Lord Himself.

Yes, that is true, but that's not what they're claiming. They are saying that Peter alone had that authority and that he was the only rock of the Church. Therefore, so this claims, once Peter died, the Church was to be guided by the Holy Ghost and devoid of continued human authority.

Well, in order to do that, they sure have to ignore a lot of the Bible.  The word "bishop" means "overseer."  In order to have "overseers," one must have somebody "under" the overseers.  Scripture is quite clear that the apostles were bishops and that they had the authority to command and that they passed on this authority.  Saint Paul commanded Timothy to command others.

I Timothy 4, KJV:

"10": For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

"11": These things command and teach.

Of course, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I just have a hard time understanding how Protestants can rationalize their various belief systems.
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#23
(05-18-2009, 09:01 PM)DJR Wrote:
(05-15-2009, 08:38 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(05-15-2009, 07:29 PM)DJR Wrote:
(05-15-2009, 07:12 PM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(05-15-2009, 06:06 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: Wrong language fallacy

John 1:42

et adduxit eum ad Iesum intuitus autem eum Iesus dixit tu es Simon filius Iohanna tu vocaberis Cephas quod interpretatur Petrus



Cephas or kefa or some sort of transliteration from Aramaic.  There is only one word for that, not a feminine or diminutive form

so it would have been Rock...rock, not little rock...rock.

Correct - the word in Aramaic is כאפא kîfâ, which is incidentally a feminine word in Aramaic.  There are other words for "stone" or "rock" in Aramaic, but there is no indication that a different word is ever in view in the Bible.  The word is probably "Petros" in Greek because Greek words very obviously show their gender in a way that Semitic words do not - it might have been vaguely insulting to use a feminine form in Greek, whereas in Aramaic it might not have been.  That's just speculation, though.

But your speculation is correct.  Our Lord did not speak Greek to his apostles; He spoke to them in their native tongue.  The Greek, though inspired, is merely what was written.  The Gospel writer would not put "Petra" (feminine) in the Greek for Peter; he would put "Petros," which is masculine.  What Our Lord said to Peter was, "Thou art Kepha, and on this Kepha I will build My Church." 

Other languages that don't have the gender problem encountered in the Greek have the same thing.  French:  Thou art Pierre, and on this Pierre I will build my Church..."

The Protestants can come up with their lame explanations all they like; it doesn't change the fact that Peter was singled out as the shepherd of the Church.  "Feed my lambs...," et cetera.  He said that to Peter, and to Peter alone.  Only a shepherd feeds the flock; the flock cannot feed itself.  Thus, Peter was designated as the shepherd of the Church by Our Lord Himself.

Yes, that is true, but that's not what they're claiming. They are saying that Peter alone had that authority and that he was the only rock of the Church. Therefore, so this claims, once Peter died, the Church was to be guided by the Holy Ghost and devoid of continued human authority.

Well, in order to do that, they sure have to ignore a lot of the Bible.  The word "bishop" means "overseer."  In order to have "overseers," one must have somebody "under" the overseers.  Scripture is quite clear that the apostles were bishops and that they had the authority to command and that they passed on this authority.  Saint Paul commanded Timothy to command others.

I Timothy 4, KJV:

"10": For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

"11": These things command and teach.

Of course, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I just have a hard time understanding how Protestants can rationalize their various belief systems.

Well, don't try too hard  :). It's easy when a person does not love Truth. They would like to defend what they believe to be true rather than accept or acknowledge that they could be in error.
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#24
Protties founding a new church a week and all, I've been waiting for one to found their church on The Rock

[Image: (SC)The_Rock_Photo.jpg]
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