Lots and Lots, or few get to Heaven
#61
veritatem_dilexisti Wrote:And to those whom He chooses, He gives the Catholic faith, that they may not be damned (thus Sts Thomas and Alphonsus; cf. II Corinthians iv, 3–4).

But that's my point. What makes you think they don't have the Catholic faith?

- Lisa
Reply
#62
(05-29-2009, 03:44 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(05-29-2009, 03:42 PM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote: [quote='StrictCatholicGirl' pid='376714' dateline='1243625697']And to those whom He chooses, He gives the Catholic faith, that they may not be damned (thus Sts Thomas and Alphonsus; cf. II Corinthians iv, 3–4).

But that's my point. What makes you think they don't have the Catholic faith?

Are you saying that people can simultaneously be "Jews, Muslims, pagans, agnostics, [or] Buddhists", and Catholics? Adherence to Catholicism precludes profession and practice of another religion, and vice versa.
Reply
#63
(05-29-2009, 03:47 PM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote: Are you saying that people can simultaneously be "Jews, Muslims, pagans, agnostics, [or] Buddhists", and Catholics? Adherence to Catholicism precludes profession and practice of another religion, and vice versa.

I'm saying that there are some Jews, Muslims, pagans and agnostics who probably LIVE the Catholic Faith better than I do. In all seriousness, who do you think God's going to go easier on when Judgment Day comes?

- Lisa
Reply
#64
(05-27-2009, 02:49 AM)Scipio_a Wrote: OK, I do not want any quotes from saints, etc. since there are saints that that fall on both sides of this divide.  Are there lots of people or only smaller numbers that will make it to Heaven, in YOUR opinion) or feeling)?

I ask this because I fluctuate between both poles on this.  Some times it depends on my mode, other times it is an intellectual process.  Perhaps you fluctuate as well...why?

Scipio_a, I know exactly how you feel, and yeah, sometimes it's a mood, and sometimes it's an intellectual process.  I've been pondering the question the past couple of days, forming something to post, but Vox summed up many of my feelings better than I would have:

(05-29-2009, 01:45 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: My feeling, my guess, and my hope is that lots and lots of people go to Heaven. I definitely don't have the lurking suspicion that poor scrupulous types seem to have that "God is out to 'get us'" at all. I picture Him as Love and Mercy beyond our imagination. I believe He gave us the way of perfection -- the Catholic life and the Sacraments and devotions and disciplines -- but that those who aren't formally a part of the Church's Body can be a part of Her Soul in ways only God knows. I believe there will be Jews, Muslims, pagans, agnostics, Buddhists, and all manner of people in Heaven, and that charity and goodness of heart and will that only GOD sees will be the thing that makes a person a part of the Church -- outside of which no one is saved -- or not. I believe that He will be merciful as all get out to whomever He wants, and that, like a good Father, He will be just that to all those who haven't found the way of perfection or who are weak in many ways but who truly try to obey the natural law and love God (even in mistaken ways which we, as Catholics, have the burden of teaching and loving them away from) and love their neighbor as themselves.

That is my personal opinion, my take. My hope. I could be wrong, of course. Maybe I should be more afraid. But I'm not. Maybe I'll be in for a rude awakening (I hope not!). Or maybe others will be in for a great surprise...

It comes down to the fact that other than the devils, we don't know who or if anybody else is in hell (there are writings of visions on the topic, but I believe these are all private revelations).  Other than Our Lord, Moses and Elias (they appeared at the Transfiguration; Mt. 17:3), our Blessed Mother, and the cannonized saints, we don't know who else is in Heaven, though the Apocalypse speaks of there being a multitude.

Why do I flucutate?  I could write a book ..., but a couple of examples from each camp -

On the "fear" side:

#1, I went to pre VII parochial school (born 1951), and there was greater emphasis on having a healthy "Fear of the Lord", back then.  In fact, if I recall, it was a "consider yourselves darn lucky if you do ever make it to Heaven" kinda thing.  Fr. Schmidt would have the Redemtorists in every year for a parish mission, and they would do a service each day for the Catholic School kids.  I think we could almost feel the flames laping at our bottom sides after that  ;D.

#2, Lent 2008, during which I proposed to pray the Litergy of the Hours (the Novus Ordo Breviary) more faithfully, I did a Google search on the topic, and ran across Fish Eaters.  Being a regular Novus Ordo, "God is Love", kinda guy, on the surface it wouldn't seem to be my kind of place to hang out, but I did, and sometimes, some of the posts are kinda like "the flames laping at the bottom side"  ;D.  I have wondered if the Holy Spirit got me here for a purpose (and no, I'm feeling that the Holy Ghost wants me to leave the mainstream Church for one of the more traditional Catholic camps  :P, but that is another topic).

On the "hope" side:

#1, The nuns in full traditional habits in pre VII parochial school made sure we all got our First Fridays done (sort of like a "salvation insurance policy" - I'm not being sarcastic, they were explaining it in terms a grade school kid would understand).  The emphasis was on the 12th. promise of Our Lord to St. Margaret Mary:  "I promise you in the excessive mercy of My Heart that My all-powerful love will grant to all those who communicate on the First Friday in nine consecutive months the grace of final penitence; they shall not die in My disgrace nor without receiving their Sacraments.  My Divine Heart shall be thier safe refuge in this last moment."  I've been thinking for a time that perhaps God is calling me to do the 9 First Friday's again - can't do them too many times, really.  It would have been and still is easy.  For three years I was a parish business admin., and could go to Mass whenever I wanted, and for the past 6 years I've worked at a university dairy farm, and 'cuz I work every other weekend I get every Friday off.  It would be easy, but I'm having a block about it, so something I'm praying about.

#2, Our Lord gives a rather explecit discription of the last judgement in St. Matthew, Chapter 25, verses 31 - 46  http://www.drbo.org, the "Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me", discourse.  I know lots of non-Catholics, and Catholics who aren't too faithful in some critical areas, who are pretty darn faithful in the area of Mt. 25:31-46.

All I can say is, we gotta (in the words of one of the parochial school nuns) "never give up, never stop praying"; have trust in God's mercy without being presumptious of it; have a proper "fear of the Lord", but not let our angst turn into Jansenism (I believe the Sacred Heart devotion came about in response to Jansenism), and detract us from the good works we should be doing.

And then, it's like Vox said:

Quote:That is my personal opinion, my take. My hope. I could be wrong, of course. Maybe I should be more afraid. But I'm not. Maybe I'll be in for a rude awakening (I hope not!). Or maybe others will be in for a great surprise...  
Reply
#65
moneil Wrote:Our Lord gives a rather explecit discription of the last judgement in St. Matthew, Chapter 25, verses 31 - 46  "Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me", discourse.  I know lots of non-Catholics, and Catholics who aren't too faithful in some critical areas, who are pretty darn faithful in the area of Mt. 25:31-46.

Yes, Our Lord makes it very clear that those who feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, and extend charity to their fellow man will inherit the kingdom of heaven and receive their reward. For those (not you moneil) who have a problem with that - the challenge then is for YOU to reconcile EENS with this scripture, because we know they can't contradict each other.. Right?

- Lisa
Reply
#66
I would never take Scripture and pit against it the Magisterium. We know what happens when Protestants just select Scripture out of context.
Jesus also says that whoever believes in Him will be saved. That's what Born Again Christians take to heart, and only that. They ignore all of the other requirements for salvation laid out in Scripture such as baptism, obedience to the Church, perseverance till the End, good works etcc. To take this quote from the Apocalypse and pit against EENS is the method of the Protestants. Being in the Catholic Church is not enough for salvation. We must love God, keep His commandments and "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless" and son on. But at the same time, good works without Faith or membership in the Church is just as vain.



Quote:No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Reply
#67
(05-29-2009, 04:57 PM)didishroom Wrote: I would never take Scripture and pit against it the Magisterium. We know what happens when Protestants just select Scripture out of context.
Jesus also says that whoever believes in Him will be saved. That's what Born Again Christians take to heart, and only that. They ignore all of the other requirements for salvation laid out in Scripture such as baptism, obedience to the Church, perseverance till the End, good works etcc. To take this quote from the Apocalypse and pit against EENS is the method of the Protestants. Being in the Catholic Church is not enough for salvation. We must love God, keep His commandments and "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless" and son on. But at the same time, good works without Faith or membership in the Church is just as vain.



Quote:No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

didishroom,

I don't think anybody is proposing sola scriptura here.  The OP asked why we may hope that many (as in most) will make it to heaven, or why we may fear that most won't, and if we bounce back and forth between those positions, and why - at least that's how I read it.  The bottom line is God decides.  The Church gives us Her best understanding, in finite (I didn't say faliable) human terms of what is required, by the teaching authority given Her by our Lord.  The Church also, for those blessed to be visible united with Her, provides the many "tools" our Lords makes available to achieve our salvation (sacraments, sacramentals, indulgences, true doctrine, etc.).

Those fortunate to be in visible communion with the Church are bound to abide by Her direction, as God gives them the grace and understanding to do so (that just means that there may be a differnent "standard" of sorts for an illiterate peasant, who, while baptized, has only had the opportunity to have received a rudimentary understanding of the faith, as opposed to someing blessed with the means to have an extensive theological education (through school, or reading).  Also, access to the sacraments and good spiritual direction varies widely.

In the end, it's God who decides.  He will call whom He wills, applying means known to Him (maybe angels do appear to baptize people with water at the end, idk).  We believe God is good, so thereby His decission will be good.  God is Justice AND Mercy.  Our human capacity to understand what that means is finite and imperfect, and we may not truly understand it.  We believe it will be good and perfect, because God is good and perfect (and, after all, perfect justice and perfect mercy can seem contridictory to our finite human understanding).

People were asked for examples of why they believe God will allow many to be saved.  I don't think anybody's implied that we who have been blessed to be Catholic are free to use those examples as personal excuses to dispense ourselves from Church teaching.  On the other hand, we are free to never give up, never stop praying, and to trust and hope in God's mercy for everyone.  Cuz, in the end it's He who decides.
Reply
#68
I mostly agree with this below.

However I got my Catholic education not from nuns, but from men (in the fifties) and the attitud was:

When you die, you will met Christ, and He will ask you : Do you want to come with me?

One of my classmates stood up asking: who will chose against him?

So the pries continued: he will embrace two of your worst enemies. Will you want to go with them?

And the same can be accomplished by showing the heaven, where there is no sex, no control over others, no privileges and many things what we pursue here. We had to be  poor in heart, disassociate ourselves from the world, if we want to chose Christ, and His abode

As for the 9 consecutive First Friday confession and receiving communion, I went true on that many times, but my memory says that I will have only the opportunity for the viaticum, but I have to chose to receive it, without knowing that it is the last time.

laszlo

laszlo


(05-29-2009, 04:08 PM)moneil Wrote: It comes down to the fact that other than the devils, we don't know who or if anybody else is in hell (there are writings of visions on the topic, but I believe these are all private revelations).  Other than Our Lord, Moses and Elias (they appeared at the Transfiguration; Mt. 17:3), our Blessed Mother, and the cannonized saints, we don't know who else is in Heaven, though the Apocalypse speaks of there being a multitude.

Why do I flucutate?  I could write a book ..., but a couple of examples from each camp -

On the "fear" side:

#1, I went to pre VII parochial school (born 1951), and there was greater emphasis on having a healthy "Fear of the Lord", back then.  In fact, if I recall, it was a "consider yourselves darn lucky if you do ever make it to Heaven" kinda thing.  Fr. Schmidt would have the Redemtorists in every year for a parish mission, and they would do a service each day for the Catholic School kids.  I think we could almost feel the flames laping at our bottom sides after that  ;D.

#2, Lent 2008, during which I proposed to pray the Litergy of the Hours (the Novus Ordo Breviary) more faithfully, I did a Google search on the topic, and ran across Fish Eaters.  Being a regular Novus Ordo, "God is Love", kinda guy, on the surface it wouldn't seem to be my kind of place to hang out, but I did, and sometimes, some of the posts are kinda like "the flames laping at the bottom side"  ;D.  I have wondered if the Holy Spirit got me here for a purpose (and no, I'm feeling that the Holy Ghost wants me to leave the mainstream Church for one of the more traditional Catholic camps  :P, but that is another topic).

On the "hope" side:

#1, The nuns in full traditional habits in pre VII parochial school made sure we all got our First Fridays done (sort of like a "salvation insurance policy" - I'm not being sarcastic, they were explaining it in terms a grade school kid would understand).  The emphasis was on the 12th. promise of Our Lord to St. Margaret Mary:  "I promise you in the excessive mercy of My Heart that My all-powerful love will grant to all those who communicate on the First Friday in nine consecutive months the grace of final penitence; they shall not die in My disgrace nor without receiving their Sacraments.  My Divine Heart shall be thier safe refuge in this last moment."  I've been thinking for a time that perhaps God is calling me to do the 9 First Friday's again - can't do them too many times, really.  It would have been and still is easy.  For three years I was a parish business admin., and could go to Mass whenever I wanted, and for the past 6 years I've worked at a university dairy farm, and 'cuz I work every other weekend I get every Friday off.  It would be easy, but I'm having a block about it, so something I'm praying about.

#2, Our Lord gives a rather explecit discription of the last judgement in St. Matthew, Chapter 25, verses 31 - 46  http://www.drbo.org, the "Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me", discourse.  I know lots of non-Catholics, and Catholics who aren't too faithful in some critical areas, who are pretty darn faithful in the area of Mt. 25:31-46.

All I can say is, we gotta (in the words of one of the parochial school nuns) "never give up, never stop praying"; have trust in God's mercy without being presumptious of it; have a proper "fear of the Lord", but not let our angst turn into Jansenism (I believe the Sacred Heart devotion came about in response to Jansenism), and detract us from the good works we should be doing.

And then, it's like Vox said:

Quote:That is my personal opinion, my take. My hope. I could be wrong, of course. Maybe I should be more afraid. But I'm not. Maybe I'll be in for a rude awakening (I hope not!). Or maybe others will be in for a great surprise...  
Reply
#69
(05-29-2009, 04:57 PM)didishroom Wrote: I would never take Scripture and pit against it the Magisterium. We know what happens when Protestants just select Scripture out of context.

I'm not pitting.... I'm reconciling. And I'm not taking the Protestant approach because I know the Church's teachings and scripture can never contradict each other.

The scenario is the end of the world and the final judgment. The sheep and the goats have been separated. This is the pivotal moment. From Our Lord's own mouth we are given the criterion for inheriting the kingdom of heaven or losing the kingdom of heaven. What is the deciding factor? At the end of the day you must love your fellow man. You must have charity.

Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Possess you the kingdom..... What is the kingdom? It's heaven, the Church Triumphant. Jesus is telling us that those who love their neighbor possess the kingdom. They are heirs. They are in the Catholic Church. They are Catholics.

- Lisa 
Reply
#70
While I agree Christ is talking to Catholics here, they are not Catholics simply for their charity He mentions in the Apocalypse.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)