Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article
#71
lamentabili sane Wrote:
GodFirst Wrote:Error and falsehood have no rights, neither does truth in it's nature of mere knowledge. Persons or beings alone have rights, and each and every right they have has equivalent corresponding duty. Hence, since we all have the duty to practice the Catholic Religion, we all have the right to practice It.
And since there can be no duty to practice a false religion, there can be no right to practice it.
Yes. But there is also the right not to be coerced into practicing the true religion because God has created men endowed with free will. Love and Faith can only be given freely.

You know it's a sign of insanity to keep repeating yourself.
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#72
(06-04-2009, 04:16 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 04:08 PM)didishroom Wrote: We have the freedom to practice any religion but not the right. Error and falsehood has no right.

Nobody has a right to this freedom. Error may be tolerated...that is all.

"Pope Pius XII, Ci Riesce" Wrote:Thus the two principles are clarified to which recourse must be had in concrete cases for the answer to the serious question concerning the attitude which the jurist, the statesman and the sovereign Catholic state is to adopt in consideration of the community of nations in regard to a formula of religious and moral toleration as described above.

First: that which does not correspond to truth or to the norm of morality objectively has no right to exist, to be spread or to be activated.

Secondly: failure to impede this with civil laws and coercive measures can nevertheless be justified in the interests of a higher and more general good.

Freedom, as in choice, as in free will.
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#73
(06-04-2009, 04:27 PM)GodFirst Wrote:
lamentabili Wrote:DH says a man has a right to absolute liberty in the practice of his religion...any religion. Unless he disturbs the public order.
Where? Show me the exact quote where the word "absolute" is use? Please!
Because I only read this:
....the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed.

I said absolute...unless it disturbs the public order.
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#74
(06-04-2009, 04:30 PM)GodFirst Wrote:
lamentabili sane Wrote:
GodFirst Wrote:Error and falsehood have no rights, neither does truth in it's nature of mere knowledge. Persons or beings alone have rights, and each and every right they have has equivalent corresponding duty. Hence, since we all have the duty to practice the Catholic Religion, we all have the right to practice It.
And since there can be no duty to practice a false religion, there can be no right to practice it.

Yes.

Quote:But there is also the right not to be coerced into practicing the true religion because God has created men endowed with free will. Love and Faith can only be given freely.

This is not at issue here. It's a red herring. The true faith is freely accepted (it is a gift from God) or freely rejected.

"GodFirst" Wrote:You know it's a sign of insanity to keep repeating yourself.

No, actually, the sure sign of impending insanity is continuing this discussion with you. :)
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#75
lamentabili sane Wrote:
Quote:But there is also the right not to be coerced into practicing the true religion because God has created men endowed with free will. Love and Faith can only be given freely.
This is not at issue here. It's a red herring. The true faith is freely accepted (it is a gift from God) or freely rejected.
That is the issue here because that is what DH is saying in different words though.

Quote:
"GodFirst" Wrote:You know it's a sign of insanity to keep repeating yourself.
No, actually, the sure sign of impending insanity is continuing this discussion with you. :)
Well I hope not. It certainly wouldn't be my fault, at least not intentionally.
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#76
lamentabili sane Wrote:
GodFirst Wrote:
lamentabili Wrote:DH says a man has a right to absolute liberty in the practice of his religion...any religion. Unless he disturbs the public order.
Where? Show me the exact quote where the word "absolute" is use? Please!
Because I only read this:
....the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed.
I said absolute...unless it disturbs the public order.
Then it's not so absolute, is it then? But my point, and one which you refuse to accept, is that DH only speaks of a right to immunity from coercion, not a right to practice whatever religion a person desires. And even this right to freedom from coercion is not absolute but limited or as DH says "within due limits".
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#77
(06-04-2009, 04:55 PM)GodFirst Wrote:
lamentabili sane Wrote:
GodFirst Wrote:
lamentabili Wrote:DH says a man has a right to absolute liberty in the practice of his religion...any religion. Unless he disturbs the public order.
Where? Show me the exact quote where the word "absolute" is use? Please!
Because I only read this:
....the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed.
I said absolute...unless it disturbs the public order.
Then it's not so absolute, is it then? But my point, and one which you refuse to accept, is that DH only speaks of a right to immunity from coercion, not a right to practice whatever religion a person desires. And even this right to freedom from coercion is not absolute but limited or as DH says "within due limits".

If one says absolute in a certain situation...but not absolute in another...then it is not to say absolute overall. That's exactly what I said...you just didn't understand it.
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#78
lamentabili sane Wrote:If one say absolute in a certain situation...but not absolute in another...then it is not to say absolute overall. That's exactly what I said...you just didn't understand it.
No, I understood that clearly. What I don't understand is why you won't accept that DH doesn't even talk about "a right to practice an objectively false religion" when the document doesn't even contain these words.
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#79
(06-04-2009, 04:49 PM)GodFirst Wrote:
lamentabili sane Wrote:
Quote:But there is also the right not to be coerced into practicing the true religion because God has created men endowed with free will. Love and Faith can only be given freely.
This is not at issue here. It's a red herring. The true faith is freely accepted (it is a gift from God) or freely rejected.
That is the issue here because that is what DH is saying in different words though.

You misunderstand DH as well as the traditional teaching of the Church.

I'll cut you loose here.

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#80
(06-04-2009, 05:04 PM)GodFirst Wrote:
lamentabili sane Wrote:If one say absolute in a certain situation...but not absolute in another...then it is not to say absolute overall. That's exactly what I said...you just didn't understand it.
No, I understood that clearly. What I don't understand is why you won't accept that DH doesn't even talk about "a right to practice an objectively false religion" when the document doesn't even contain these words.

No, DH does not use those words. What do you think it is giving a right to do?

Quote:2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.
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