Natural Family Planning?
#21
(06-04-2009, 09:25 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 08:30 PM)Inion_Coinin Wrote: I have a handful of complaints about NFP:

Many teachers of NFP actually encourage couples to use oral sex as a substitute for the real thing during fertile times.

Those people are not teaching NFP but something else.  NFP allows no "substitute".

NFP is not like a clearly defined doctrine.  Those who teach it can teach it however they like.
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#22
(06-04-2009, 09:26 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 08:49 PM)libby Wrote: I agree with what Inion wrote- those are all problems that occur with NFP

Those aren't problems with NFP, they're problems with human weakness.
I do see where you're coming from.  But until the Catholic church clearly outlines how NFP is to be used, and how it is to be taught, it is rife with abuses and problems.  I'm not saying this because I'm against using it, by any means, but I am very against the way it is presented in the church.  On both sides of the issue, it is presented as being more effective than artificial birth control, which it is not, and it's presented in such a way as to encourage sin.
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#23
(06-04-2009, 09:37 PM)Inion_Coinin Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 09:25 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 08:30 PM)Inion_Coinin Wrote: I have a handful of complaints about NFP:

Many teachers of NFP actually encourage couples to use oral sex as a substitute for the real thing during fertile times.

Those people are not teaching NFP but something else.  NFP allows no "substitute".

NFP is not like a clearly defined doctrine.  Those who teach it can teach it however they like.

Actually, they can't.  Promoting sin and heresy is not allowed regardless of what letters you put in front of it.  For them to say "oral sex is ok when you are fertile" is promoting sin and teaching heresy.
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#24
(06-04-2009, 09:41 PM)Inion_Coinin Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 09:26 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 08:49 PM)libby Wrote: I agree with what Inion wrote- those are all problems that occur with NFP

Those aren't problems with NFP, they're problems with human weakness.
I do see where you're coming from.  But until the Catholic church clearly outlines how NFP is to be used, and how it is to be taught, it is rife with abuses and problems. 

The Church will never say "teach NFP this way" any more than it has ever said "teach (fill in the blank) this way".  The Church teaches Faith and Morals, not instruction.  Pre-Cana, Catechesis, etc., don't have "rules" on how to be taught but we don't say "Catechesis is rife with abuses and problems" we say there are lousy RCIA teachers.

The "rule" is to teach in accordance with what the Church teaches and that goes for any and all of RCIA, pre-Cana, NFP, etc.

How it is to be used is left to the discretion of one's pastor who is the only one who can answer questions because it's licitness has to be referred to a particular situation.

There's nothing wrong with NFP - there are just screwballs running a lot of the instruction, just like RCIA classes.
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#25
(06-04-2009, 09:56 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: The Church will never say "teach NFP this way" any more than it has ever said "teach (fill in the blank) this way".  The Church teaches Faith and Morals, not instruction.  Pre-Cana, Catechesis, etc., don't have "rules" on how to be taught but we don't say "Catechesis is rife with abuses and problems" we say there are lousy RCIA teachers.

The "rule" is to teach in accordance with what the Church teaches and that goes for any and all of RCIA, pre-Cana, NFP, etc.

This is exactly right. The Church teaches faith and morals. She teaches that it is sometimes morally permissible to regulate births and space children using natural methods. The Catholic Conference of Bishops has Diocesan Standards for NFP services, which are based on the Church's doctrine and moral teaching. Diocesan NFP directors are expected to maintain a lifestyle consistent with Catholic moral teaching. All instructors are expected to agree to and meet the Standards, which include the required reading of major church documents. The Standards are not intended to provide specific answers for every situation, but are intended to provide a framework. If you think an instructor is teaching something questionable, it should be reported to the NFP Coordinator appointed by the bishop.

- Lisa
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#26
(06-04-2009, 08:30 PM)Inion_Coinin Wrote: 2. It's difficult to un-learn it.  So if it's standard to teach it to all couples, or if you learn it just to put off having children during the first couple years of marriage, it's hard to revert back to blissful ignorance and let God take control.  For example, Mom may be worn out by her first child and so she is tempted to tell hubby she has a headache when she is cued in to her fertility signs.  My own experience with this is that I feel like I'm in control of my fertility, so instead of just relaxing, I feel like I'm making decisions about it all the time.

That is a very legitimate issue, either as part of this thread or for the woman's forum. It is not even a matter of the woman lying, but rather feeling the stress of responsibility for conception, and equally for the husband taking the wifes self-knowledge for granted. Not in all, or maybe even most cases of course, but it has the real potential to turn the "oops yay!" baby into the "you didn't tell me you were fertile yet" baby
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#27
(06-04-2009, 08:30 PM)Inion_Coinin Wrote: I have a handful of complaints about NFP:

1. There is a temptation to sin during fertile periods by performing incomplete sexual acts, self abuse, or onanism.  Many teachers of NFP actually encourage couples to use oral sex as a substitute for the real thing during fertile times.  Also, both women and men tend to have higher libidos during the woman's fertile period.  Obviously, women are built to be more interested in the procreative act when they are most fertile, and I think their husbands read off of these signals.
Your points 2 and 3 are of course good points, but I take a bit of issue with #1. Your 'argument' against it is that it leads to sin (and is thus sinful? not sure if you're going this far) and because of the things that people do that are objectively wrong according to the Church, that is somehow NFP's 'fault.' The commingling of NFP with onanism and unnatural sex acts is an unnecessary conflation.

That's kind of like the people who point out priests that are ephebophiles or have mistresses as a failure of the discipline of priestly celibacy.
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#28
NFP can be used also to know when is the time to try to make babies just in case you're having problems, for all else, there's the redneck method.  I will not elaborate.
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#29
I think IF NFP is used illicitly it could be in part because we are all SO engrained in a contraceptive culture, it is very hard to discern whether you have a contraceptive mindset or not. It's like trying to figure out what wet is if you've only ever lived underwater. (Forgive the silly analogy  :laughing:) Overall, I think if a couple is using NFP that they are TRYING to live the Church's teaching and don't have a malicious intent, which would mitigate any "sin" they may be committing by using it for what someone else may not consider a valid reason. Afterall, if they wanted to use NFP in a contraceptive manner, they'd probably just use contraceptives. Most Catholics do anyway, and honestly, I can't see a couple who choose to use NFP using it because they would rather save for a big vacation than have another child, for example. Couples in those situations would ignore the Church's teachings entirely.
Personally, I think we should be doing more educating about NFP and more praying that those who need to space births choose NFP rather than artificial contraceptives, and less time critiquing a method that is of itself morally neutral.
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#30
(06-06-2009, 07:41 PM)savienu Wrote: I think IF NFP is used illicitly it could be in part because we are all SO engrained in a contraceptive culture, it is very hard to discern whether you have a contraceptive mindset or not.

I agree.  That's why couples should consult their priests on these questions.  We naturally have a biased outlook and we need an objective opinion.  And it goes both ways, some people who could use NFP licitly might be too scrupulous about it and their families suffer hardships needlessly.
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