Thoughts on going to the NO
#31
(06-14-2009, 10:54 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(06-14-2009, 10:48 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote:
"Rosarium" Wrote:The NO is a valid form of the mass in the True Church. The NO rite was influenced by protestants we could say (but that is beyond the scope of this thread and probably the forum), but to say it is a new religion (which doesn't make sense, it is just a rite) is probably not something we should be saying as Catholics.

The law of prayer is the law of belief.

"Pope Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae" Wrote:Being fully cognizant of the necessary connection between faith and worship, between "the law of believing and the law of praying", under a pretext of returning to the primitive form, they corrupted the Liturgical Order in many ways to suit the errors of the reformers. For this reason, in the whole Ordinal not only is there no clear mention of the sacrifice, of consecration, of the priesthood (sacerdotium), and of the power of consecrating and offering sacrifice but, as we have just stated, every trace of these things which had been in such prayers of the Catholic rite as they had not entirely rejected, was deliberately removed and struck out.

No, Rosarium, you miss the point I was trying to make. The point is that the law of prayer MUST be changed to change beliefs. Heretics and "reformers" know this fact...they know they cannot change beliefs without changing the way we pray.




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#32
(06-14-2009, 11:00 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: No, Rosarium, you miss the point I was trying to make. The point is that the law of prayer MUST be changed to change beliefs. Heretics and "reformers" know this fact...they know they cannot change beliefs without changing the way we pray.

It is possible to change beliefs without changing anything else. Many heretics start out this way.
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#33
(06-14-2009, 07:28 PM)lumine Wrote: It seems that this site isn't only a Traditional Catholic Forum, it is actually a forum for people who either have a strong dislike for the Mass in the vernacular and a forum for people who mostly attend Masses celebrated by the Society of Saint Pius X.  I say this because interestingly my fish factor has increased by negative integers since my posts today.  It is my contention that one is traditional while liking the Novus Ordo.  Let's see how far beyond negative thirty I go now.

I should start a topic on people who have the most negative points!

Preference for the extraordinary form of the Mass is one thing that I would consider common to all Catholics who are traditionalists.
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#34
(06-14-2009, 07:28 PM)lumine Wrote: It seems that this site isn't only a Traditional Catholic Forum, it is actually a forum for people who either have a strong dislike for the Mass in the vernacular and a forum for people who mostly attend Masses celebrated by the Society of Saint Pius X.  I say this because interestingly my fish factor has increased by negative integers since my posts today.  It is my contention that one is traditional while liking the Novus Ordo.  Let's see how far beyond negative thirty I go now.

I should start a topic on people who have the most negative points!

I have never attended Mass offered by an SSPX Priest. I attend the NO in the vernacular most of the time because of the inconvenient location and even more inconvenient time of the FSSP EF Mass. That said, I have to ask, with your opinions, exactly what are you doing on a Trad forum? By definition, one who holds your opinions is not a Trad and is likely a modernist underminer of our Most Holy Faith.
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#35
(06-14-2009, 11:09 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(06-14-2009, 11:00 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: No, Rosarium, you miss the point I was trying to make. The point is that the law of prayer MUST be changed to change beliefs. Heretics and "reformers" know this fact...they know they cannot change beliefs without changing the way we pray.

It is possible to change beliefs without changing anything else. Many heretics start out this way.

You still miss the point. You cannot change the way one believes without changing the way they pray.

And yes, it is possible to keep the law of prayer and break away...but those would be schismatics, not heretics. Usually, they end up being heretics and then deny some truths. How this helps understand those who actually change the law of prayer is for you to explain. :)
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#36
(06-15-2009, 07:06 AM)lamentabili sane Wrote: You still miss the point. You cannot change the way one believes without changing the way they pray.

Getting them to stop praying at all works pretty well too.
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#37
(06-15-2009, 07:06 AM)lamentabili sane Wrote: You still miss the point. You cannot change the way one believes without changing the way they pray.
Actually, I think one can change the way they believe without changing the way they pray.

Quote:And yes, it is possible to keep the law of prayer and break away...but those would be schismatics, not heretics. Usually, they end up being heretics and then deny some truths. How this helps understand those who actually change the law of prayer is for you to explain. :)
The Old Catholic Church, the Anglicans, etc are all heretics (they denied essential elements of the faith of which they had prior knowledge) yet they kept the same form for quite some time.
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#38
(06-14-2009, 07:28 PM)lumine Wrote: It seems that this site isn't only a Traditional Catholic Forum, it is actually a forum for people who either have a strong dislike for the Mass in the vernacular and a forum for people who mostly attend Masses celebrated by the Society of Saint Pius X.  I say this because interestingly my fish factor has increased by negative integers since my posts today.  It is my contention that one is traditional while liking the Novus Ordo.  Let's see how far beyond negative thirty I go now.

I should start a topic on people who have the most negative points!

No, you shouldn't start that topic.  However, you should start by reading the forum rules which are conveniently available between "Forum index" and "help" at the top of your screen.

"The Rules" Wrote:Welcome! All adult (18+) traditional Catholics are welcome here -- whether they worship inside or outside ordinary diocesan structures.

Non-Trad Participation

Anyone is most welcome to participate if they will respect the sensibilities of traditional Catholics who respect the Petrine Ministry and the man who holds the office, and if they obey the forum rules. In other words, read about what is meant by "traditional Catholics" -- and don't come here to rile people who fit that description. We get smeared everywhere else; it won't happen here.

Neither interreligious debating nor attempts to "convert" us are allowed. You can ask sincere questions about traditional Catholicism in the "Apologetics & Questions about Traditional Catholicism?" forum -- but no barraging; ask a few questions at a time. If you don't want to know the answer but are trying to "score points" or "convert" us, don't bother! 

If you want to promote the Neo-Catholic position that the Novus Ordo is traditional, etc., please take it to EWTN or Catholic Answers.
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#39
(06-15-2009, 11:48 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(06-15-2009, 07:06 AM)lamentabili sane Wrote: You still miss the point. You cannot change the way one believes without changing the way they pray.
Actually, I think one can change the way they believe without changing the way they pray.

Quote:And yes, it is possible to keep the law of prayer and break away...but those would be schismatics, not heretics. Usually, they end up being heretics and then deny some truths. How this helps understand those who actually change the law of prayer is for you to explain. :)
The Old Catholic Church, the Anglicans, etc are all heretics (they denied essential elements of the faith of which they had prior knowledge) yet they kept the same form for quite some time.

I guess Pope Leo XIII didn't know what he was talking about ...

"Pope Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae" Wrote:Being fully cognizant of the necessary connection between faith and worship, between "the law of believing and the law of praying", under a pretext of returning to the primitive form, they corrupted the Liturgical Order in many ways to suit the errors of the reformers. For this reason, in the whole Ordinal not only is there no clear mention of the sacrifice, of consecration, of the priesthood (sacerdotium), and of the power of consecrating and offering sacrifice but, as we have just stated, every trace of these things which had been in such prayers of the Catholic rite as they had not entirely rejected, was deliberately removed and struck out.


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#40
(06-15-2009, 07:02 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: I guess Pope Leo XIII didn't know what he was talking about ...

"Pope Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae" Wrote:Being fully cognizant of the necessary connection between faith and worship, between "the law of believing and the law of praying", under a pretext of returning to the primitive form, they corrupted the Liturgical Order in many ways to suit the errors of the reformers. For this reason, in the whole Ordinal not only is there no clear mention of the sacrifice, of consecration, of the priesthood (sacerdotium), and of the power of consecrating and offering sacrifice but, as we have just stated, every trace of these things which had been in such prayers of the Catholic rite as they had not entirely rejected, was deliberately removed and struck out.

No, he was right, but it isn't the full picture (and wasn't meant to be, he was addressing a change in something by the Anglicans)

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