Belief in the individual Christian's ability to lose salvation
#1
Living in Nashville TN, many of the protestants around here have this curious belief that once you're saved "you're always saved". Specifically the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Evangelicals.
Anyone want to have a philosophical stab at how that is?  ???


pax vobiscum
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#2
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Living in Nashville TN, many of the protestants around here have this curious belief that once you're saved "you're always saved". Specifically the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Evangelicals.
Anyone want to have a philosophical stab at how that is?  ???

pax vobiscum

I was tackling this issue as well recently. They seem to only take a few select verses of St. Paul's letters to come up with this. I was considering using reductio ad absurdum to show them the errors of their ways (as using the scriptures didn't work, even Jesus's direct statements didn't phase them). By their logic, since one is saved once and forever, and Heaven is eternal, one would idealy commit suicide after being "saved". They seem to have no basis for living or doing any sort of good.

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#3
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Anyone want to have a philosophical stab at how that is?  ???

One of the standard philosophical approaches to this idea is to reduce it to a tautology as follows.

Take a step backwards out of time and view salvation history from the viewpoint of view of eternity; at the culmination of salvation history, one will observe a portion of humanity that comprises the saved. Once they were saved, they were saved as they did in fact end up as members of that portion. For any others who claimed to be saved but who were not in fact members of that portion; they were mistaken.


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#4
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Re: Belief in the individual Christian's ability to loose salvation


And then there's the belief in the individual Chistian's inability to spell "lose".

Sorry; pet peeve.
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#5
(06-22-2009, 11:08 AM)spasiisochrani Wrote:
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Re: Belief in the individual Christian's ability to loose salvation


And then there's the belief in the individual Chistian's inability to spell "lose".

Sorry; pet peeve.

:doh:  oh my, and I had the highest marks of the class in English!  I'll get right on that.    :laughing:
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#6
(06-22-2009, 11:53 AM)BrevisVir55 Wrote:
(06-22-2009, 11:08 AM)spasiisochrani Wrote:
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Re: Belief in the individual Christian's ability to loose salvation


And then there's the belief in the individual Chistian's inability to spell "lose".

Sorry; pet peeve.

:doh:  oh my, and I had the highest marks of the class in English!  I'll get right on that.    :laughing:

In retrospect, my comment looks kind of snarky, given the fact that everybody except me made intelligent and useful attempts to address your question.
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#7
My Protestant grandfather wasn't as upset as other members of the family when we converted, as he believes in the Once Saved, Always Saved nonsense.  (Actually, scratch that--my little sisters were ten and eleven, and he told Mom and I that if they weren't saved yet, it was our fault they would be damned. Even quoted the "better that a millstone be fastened around their necks" verse.  One of the downsides to being mature enough at fifteen that everyone treated me like I was thirty!)

He has this whole theory on why OS,AS is true, based on the Old Testament passage about Moses first being told to speak to the stone in order that water would flow out of it, and then later being chastised for striking the stone.  The stone was a "type" of Christ, but that passage prefigured how a true apostate from the Faith is almost always left by God in his apostasy, since he has known, received, and then rejected the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice and would thus require a second Crucifixion for sins, which isn't going to happen.  Our grandfather, on the other hand, interprets it to mean that because a second sacrifice is impossible, apostasy is likewise impossible. Ergo, our actions don't matter; all that matters is how sincere we were when we prayed the Sinner's Prayer.

Don't ask me how a thinking human being can believe this....
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#8
(06-22-2009, 01:05 PM)goggleeyes Wrote: My Protestant grandfather wasn't as upset as other members of the family when we converted, as he believes in the Once Saved, Always Saved nonsense.  (Actually, scratch that--my little sisters were ten and eleven, and he told Mom and I that if they weren't saved yet, it was our fault they would be damned. Even quoted the "better that a millstone be fastened around their necks" verse.  One of the downsides to being mature enough at fifteen that everyone treated me like I was thirty!)

He has this whole theory on why OS,AS is true, based on the Old Testament passage about Moses first being told to speak to the stone in order that water would flow out of it, and then later being chastised for striking the stone.  The stone was a "type" of Christ, but that passage prefigured how a true apostate from the Faith is almost always left by God in his apostasy, since he has known, received, and then rejected the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice and would thus require a second Crucifixion for sins, which isn't going to happen.  Our grandfather, on the other hand, interprets it to mean that because a second sacrifice is impossible, apostasy is likewise impossible. Ergo, our actions don't matter; all that matters is how sincere we were when we prayed the Sinner's Prayer. Don't ask me how a thinking human being can believe this....

they can believe it because each and every one of them has accepted Jesus Christ as their "very own personal Savior".

As long as you're sincere, and you are sincerely sorry that you had a little encounter with that blonde last night when you were drunk, then you are free to do it again the following weekend. Not that this is encouraged - it's discouraged. But many think that they have Jesus as a sort of guardian angel - no matter what you do, no matter how you think, act, or evangelize, you will always be saved because Jesus has your back.

We know we have the Blessed Sacrament, but we also know that we have to follow our Faith, and try to please God by doing so, not flirt with disaster ( as well as the very real possibility of eternal damnation) so that we can prove how we can basically do whatever we want.

Many protestants have a big problem with "The Law". If you don't need to go to confession, why not do whatever you want? Just say you're sorry in your head, and you're good to go.

I hope that I don't sound sarcastic - I don't mean to be.

It just makes me so sad that so many people unabashedly turn away from God and rationalize, rationalize, rationalize.We all rationalize.... but we have the Church, and She helps us to stay on course.
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#9
Yep, you've pretty much nailed it.  It's maddening.  Yes, they have standards for behavior.  But you point to anything --say, the clear Biblical statement that marriage after divorce is adultery, and they either say they don't believe that still applies, or they do agree it's adultery, but shrug their shoulders and say God won't hold it against them.  No such thing as working out salvation with fear and trembling, or Jesus' saying that we must be doers of the Word.

We just pray for them and try not to work ourselves into a hysterical frenzy about how difficult contrition will be for those who don't think sin is a big deal.
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#10
Isn't this problem due to the heretical teachings of Calvin? More protestant wickedness.
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